@arthur-dent largely agree but at some point personal accountability and responsibility have to step up. I got a masters in public administration and public policy with a focus on urban planning three decades ago now. It’s the exact same, well, everything. Poor school results. High crime. Gov. Programs. Dems pointing fingers. Victimhood. I’ve seen people literally get dropped off here in that same span of time, from a war, with nothing, build businesses and move out to the burbs. In one generation. Kids now thriving.
blacks need to begin to do better. Look to themselves. Personal responsibility. Personal accountability. Go down to the confined docket in the city or country it’ll be all blacks. The slavery bit is coming close to a sol.
as for app and rural they are adapting. Those towns are drying up. Hollers are being abandoned. No jobs. No coal. The next gen is moving. To find work.
this is all the thrust of the OP which only vapid left wingers could dislike. Personal responsibility…. We all need help. At times. But at some point you have to look inward to break the cycle
Arthur Dent your post in part states...
There is no good way of integrating schools. Sadly, that seems to me to be the answer. Put these kids in with kids who believe school leads somewhere. Maybe allowing the feeling hopeless in with the hopeful will raise the hope.
Busing at one time was supposed to be the solution. Back at the time busing had my support.
My first inclination that busing wasn't working was being a volunteer as a substitute teacher. To my surprise the so-called integrated schools weren't really integrated as black and white students voluntarily remained separated.
The final straw in realizing busing was a failure came when moving into an inter-city integrated neighborhood in 1986 and saw how the neighborhood kids no longer walked to a neighborhood grade or high school. Instead, they spent valuable time each day on a bus. In addition, when exiting the bus, it was obvious to me the students hadn't become pals.
So, Arthur, you might be right when you say, "There is no good way of integrating schools".
Murt hit part of it and alluded to the other. Culture and parents who are involved.
Culture, with that tradition, and involvement are important. What I am going to suggest is that some of this was damaged in Black society.
I saw a documentary on trying to increase swimming rates among Blacks (IU's Lilly King was both in the documentary and a panelist in a moderated discussion after). The film's creator said most American slaves came from a region in Africa that uses water frequently, and that includes swimming. But it was illegal in the South to teach slaves to swim, it greatly increased the ability to escape. So it was something lost to the culture in America. Even after emancipation, public pools in the north even didn't allow Blacks.
I theorize education is similar. Certainly not entirely. Slaves were not to be educated. Blacks were meant to be muscle, that is all. Then during Jim Crow it was not much different. So generations of Blacks had no reason, none, to value education.
Which goes to my Appalachia point, Whites who have had no reason to value education for a long time and do below average as a whole.
I read a Malcolm X speech. He was trying to get Blacks to protest more and said that while they could get thrown in jail, it doesn't matter because they live their fay-to-day lives in jail. Sure, some hyperbole but some truth. Too many Blacks refuse to believe they can escape. Growing up I saw it with friends who were poor White. No way out, why try.
@bar-down , White flight began long before the complaints you have. Soros bail and others are new. There were still Republican mayors in 1950-75 when White flight was at its peak. . So, why did Whites leave Marion County? In some areas of the country, it began as early as 1900.
I am not at all disagreeing that Black parents, even non-parent adults in the "takes a village" theory, need to step up. We need more involvement, we need them reading to kids and demanding the kids try to learn. But just shaking our heads with a, "it's their fault" isn't likely to solve anything. Nor to another point made by a poster earlier, I am not sure the government has the power to tell people they cannot procreate. The government with that kind of power concerns me. I spoke with people at a dog boarding facility and asked how they did their daycare, did they put all the rowdy dogs together. They said no, all rowdy feed off each other and it gets too crazy.
There is no good way of integrating schools. Sadly, that seems to me to be the answer. Put these kids in with kids who believe school leads somewhere. Maybe allowing the feeling hopeless in with the hopeful will raise the hope.
Maybe someone with deeper pockets than Dolly will find a way to further leverage her book program. Kids can come to a facility once a month to get a new book, and by even semi accurately describing the last book they get a $10 gift card. For really young kids, maybe allow the parents to as that indicates the parent may have read the book. Restrict it by zip code so Carmel kids aren't popping down to Center Township or rural Appalachia. No idea if it would work but I don't see why a pilot would be a bad idea.
Building reading, writing, math in the home I think should be the goal. Now how?
Many truths here. Maybe you can also provide some insight into a very real scenario from my own life. One of my good friends growing up, lived across the street as a matter of fact. He had a wonderful family, with great parents, & they were quite wealthy. Yet while I excelled in school & was in all of the advanced classes, he struggled to maintain average grades in standard classes. We had the same culture, same family dynamics, so why was I more intelligent than he was?
Improving education has turned about to be simple; improve literacy.
We don’t need busses, we don’t need integration, we don’t need wealthy families, we may not even need meaningful parent support. We need literacy. I can’t say enough positive things about the Mississippi Miracle, it deserves study, It is disrupting the poverty to bad education connection, and it might even have broken the connection, we will see.
Murt hit part of it and alluded to the other. Culture and parents who are involved.
Culture, with that tradition, and involvement are important. What I am going to suggest is that some of this was damaged in Black society.
I saw a documentary on trying to increase swimming rates among Blacks (IU's Lilly King was both in the documentary and a panelist in a moderated discussion after). The film's creator said most American slaves came from a region in Africa that uses water frequently, and that includes swimming. But it was illegal in the South to teach slaves to swim, it greatly increased the ability to escape. So it was something lost to the culture in America. Even after emancipation, public pools in the north even didn't allow Blacks.
I theorize education is similar. Certainly not entirely. Slaves were not to be educated. Blacks were meant to be muscle, that is all. Then during Jim Crow it was not much different. So generations of Blacks had no reason, none, to value education.
Which goes to my Appalachia point, Whites who have had no reason to value education for a long time and do below average as a whole.
I read a Malcolm X speech. He was trying to get Blacks to protest more and said that while they could get thrown in jail, it doesn't matter because they live their fay-to-day lives in jail. Sure, some hyperbole but some truth. Too many Blacks refuse to believe they can escape. Growing up I saw it with friends who were poor White. No way out, why try.
@bar-down , White flight began long before the complaints you have. Soros bail and others are new. There were still Republican mayors in 1950-75 when White flight was at its peak. . So, why did Whites leave Marion County? In some areas of the country, it began as early as 1900.
I am not at all disagreeing that Black parents, even non-parent adults in the "takes a village" theory, need to step up. We need more involvement, we need them reading to kids and demanding the kids try to learn. But just shaking our heads with a, "it's their fault" isn't likely to solve anything. Nor to another point made by a poster earlier, I am not sure the government has the power to tell people they cannot procreate. The government with that kind of power concerns me. I spoke with people at a dog boarding facility and asked how they did their daycare, did they put all the rowdy dogs together. They said no, all rowdy feed off each other and it gets too crazy.
There is no good way of integrating schools. Sadly, that seems to me to be the answer. Put these kids in with kids who believe school leads somewhere. Maybe allowing the feeling hopeless in with the hopeful will raise the hope.
Maybe someone with deeper pockets than Dolly will find a way to further leverage her book program. Kids can come to a facility once a month to get a new book, and by even semi accurately describing the last book they get a $10 gift card. For really young kids, maybe allow the parents to as that indicates the parent may have read the book. Restrict it by zip code so Carmel kids aren't popping down to Center Township or rural Appalachia. No idea if it would work but I don't see why a pilot would be a bad idea.
Building reading, writing, math in the home I think should be the goal. Now how?
Many truths here. Maybe you can also provide some insight into a very real scenario from my own life. One of my good friends growing up, lived across the street as a matter of fact. He had a wonderful family, with great parents, & they were quite wealthy. Yet while I excelled in school & was in all of the advanced classes, he struggled to maintain average grades in standard classes. We had the same culture, same family dynamics, so why was I more intelligent than he was?
I am FAR from knowing anything on this, but ideas. 1 is genetic/IQ. This is often overrated, but does play a role. Conditions like ADHD matter. Did his mother smoke or drink in pregnancy.
People respond to learning differently. I have a friend who just cannot read rules to complex games. Sit and play an example turn and boom, he has it in no time and is very good at the strategy. Which explains him dropping from college to become a barber long ago.
Heck, some old as I am still had lead pipes and lead gas which damage learning.
Which is why we can only speak in general terms. Out there is an inner city kid, or a young Dolly Parton, getting perfect ACT scores.
And frankly, some people are just born with more drive. This goes back to the marshmallow experiment.
And to make people happy, modern analysis of the marshmallow experiment show class and family stability matter. I just don't know how to force family stability in a free society. We can, and should encourage it. But forcing is very tricky for me.
@co-hoosier Mississippi has done great in 4th, ok improvement in 8th. So that is all wonderful, but it would be even better if it kept working up to 8th and beyond. So there is still some work to be done (a lot if we want to catch Denmark or Finland).
Murt hit part of it and alluded to the other. Culture and parents who are involved.
Culture, with that tradition, and involvement are important. What I am going to suggest is that some of this was damaged in Black society.
I saw a documentary on trying to increase swimming rates among Blacks (IU's Lilly King was both in the documentary and a panelist in a moderated discussion after). The film's creator said most American slaves came from a region in Africa that uses water frequently, and that includes swimming. But it was illegal in the South to teach slaves to swim, it greatly increased the ability to escape. So it was something lost to the culture in America. Even after emancipation, public pools in the north even didn't allow Blacks.
I theorize education is similar. Certainly not entirely. Slaves were not to be educated. Blacks were meant to be muscle, that is all. Then during Jim Crow it was not much different. So generations of Blacks had no reason, none, to value education.
Which goes to my Appalachia point, Whites who have had no reason to value education for a long time and do below average as a whole.
I read a Malcolm X speech. He was trying to get Blacks to protest more and said that while they could get thrown in jail, it doesn't matter because they live their fay-to-day lives in jail. Sure, some hyperbole but some truth. Too many Blacks refuse to believe they can escape. Growing up I saw it with friends who were poor White. No way out, why try.
@bar-down , White flight began long before the complaints you have. Soros bail and others are new. There were still Republican mayors in 1950-75 when White flight was at its peak. . So, why did Whites leave Marion County? In some areas of the country, it began as early as 1900.
I am not at all disagreeing that Black parents, even non-parent adults in the "takes a village" theory, need to step up. We need more involvement, we need them reading to kids and demanding the kids try to learn. But just shaking our heads with a, "it's their fault" isn't likely to solve anything. Nor to another point made by a poster earlier, I am not sure the government has the power to tell people they cannot procreate. The government with that kind of power concerns me. I spoke with people at a dog boarding facility and asked how they did their daycare, did they put all the rowdy dogs together. They said no, all rowdy feed off each other and it gets too crazy.
There is no good way of integrating schools. Sadly, that seems to me to be the answer. Put these kids in with kids who believe school leads somewhere. Maybe allowing the feeling hopeless in with the hopeful will raise the hope.
Maybe someone with deeper pockets than Dolly will find a way to further leverage her book program. Kids can come to a facility once a month to get a new book, and by even semi accurately describing the last book they get a $10 gift card. For really young kids, maybe allow the parents to as that indicates the parent may have read the book. Restrict it by zip code so Carmel kids aren't popping down to Center Township or rural Appalachia. No idea if it would work but I don't see why a pilot would be a bad idea.
Building reading, writing, math in the home I think should be the goal. Now how?
Many truths here. Maybe you can also provide some insight into a very real scenario from my own life. One of my good friends growing up, lived across the street as a matter of fact. He had a wonderful family, with great parents, & they were quite wealthy. Yet while I excelled in school & was in all of the advanced classes, he struggled to maintain average grades in standard classes. We had the same culture, same family dynamics, so why was I more intelligent than he was?
I am FAR from knowing anything on this, but ideas. 1 is genetic/IQ. This is often overrated, but does play a role. Conditions like ADHD matter. Did his mother smoke or drink in pregnancy.
People respond to learning differently. I have a friend who just cannot read rules to complex games. Sit and play an example turn and boom, he has it in no time and is very good at the strategy. Which explains him dropping from college to become a barber long ago.
Heck, some old as I am still had lead pipes and lead gas which damage learning.
Which is why we can only speak in general terms. Out there is an inner city kid, or a young Dolly Parton, getting perfect ACT scores.
And frankly, some people are just born with more drive. This goes back to the marshmallow experiment.
And to make people happy, modern analysis of the marshmallow experiment show class and family stability matter. I just don't know how to force family stability in a free society. We can, and should encourage it. But forcing is very tricky for me.
Good response. I agree that genetics is the answer. Do genetics play a role on a larger scale when evaluating intelligence & IQ ?
@arthur-dent this shit ain’t Bloomington. Marv. Duck in on Sgkpeezy. See how they choppin it up. Weed. Check. Booze. Check. Scram. Check. Guns everywhere. Check. Dream. Rapper. Age 20. Now he could drive five miles over and any of the trades would jump. Come home with two bands a week. No what I’m sayin? Young. But they don’t want to work. They want to sit on their stoop and shoot the crew two blocks over they got beef with.
Culture has to change it’s been going on too long jobs are everywhere
@arthur-dent this shit ain’t Bloomington. Marv. Duck in on Sgkpeezy. See how they choppin it up. Weed. Check. Booze. Check. Scram. Check. Guns everywhere. Check. Dream. Rapper. Age 20. Now he could drive five miles over and any of the trades would jump. Come home with two bands a week. No what I’m sayin? Young. But they don’t want to work. They want to sit on their stoop and shoot the crew two blocks over they got beef with.
Culture has to change it’s been going on too long jobs are everywhere
Is it culture in Africa, Jamaica, & Haiti as well?
https://twitter.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/2093832541161550111?s=46
Friendly reminder that U.S. students perform quite well compared to the world. The decline has been from a changing of our demographics. White Americans perform at very high level and now make up a much smaller percentage of the pie.
However, U.S. Hispanics and blacks still outperform Hispanics and blacks everywhere else in the world. And U.S. Asians are the best in the world. It's a myth that American schools aren't doing a good job.
@bar-down Culture isn't the final answer, or you wouldn't allow your daughter's friend into the house. This is where Undertaker and I diverge every single time. Not every Black in St Louis is as evil as portrayed; not every Haitian is going out eating pets (a made-up story to demonize them, if they were so bad in Ohio, why did people need to fabricate that story?). I came from a racist culture; if my culture defined me, I would be as racist as anyone. I certainly don't think I am.
People are individuals. Yes, we can look at groups and say largely wealthy people do better at educational testing than poorer people. That does not come close to meaning every wealthy person is smarter than every poor person.
It is easy to look for shortcuts. To prejudge. We can't fall into that trap. Individuals are not their demographic. Poor people can be smart and productive, even if their test scores as a group a worse. Wealthy people can be real morons. I might suggest Trump, I've known conservatives that suggest the entire Kennedy family (though there may now be an exception for them).
The thinking that it is all the culture will mean the young lady you know will struggle to find advancement. It will be very easy for people to look at where she comes from and say, "no way I hire her, she's from THAT culture." That thinking is what I am opposing. People are individuals. We can predict what a gas cloud made of millions of molecules will do, we cannot predict what individual molecules inside that cloud will do.
So we can predict that as a mass, 10,000 random very poor will do worse in standardized testing than 10,000 random wealthy. But that doesn't mean there aren't many poor who outscore the majority of wealthy.
Humans have the ability to overcome; we just have to find what is required for someone to rise above their limitations. You've seen it; you made my point brilliantly in this thread. We don't need nor want people to throw away that girl just because she came from a St Louis culture. She isn't her culture. Some people choose to be or want to be. Some are forced into for lack of opportunity. Some people actively try to escape and cannot. The low-hanging fruit are those second two groups.
https://twitter.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/2093832541161550111?s=46
Friendly reminder that U.S. students perform quite well compared to the world. The decline has been from a changing of our demographics. White Americans perform at very high level and now make up a much smaller percentage of the pie.
However, U.S. Hispanics and blacks still outperform Hispanics and blacks everywhere else in the world. And U.S. Asians are the best in the world. It's a myth that American schools aren't doing a good job.
Sounds like something a person employed by the failing system would say.
Hope is not optimism, which expects things to turn out well, but something rooted in the conviction that there is good worth working for. - Seamus Heaney, Irish poet and likely Hoosier basketball fan.
POTFB
@arthur-dent In my mind as I read your posts, I believe you're co-mingling the terms culture and race. Culture isn't a monolith to which all people belong based on their race.
Hope is not optimism, which expects things to turn out well, but something rooted in the conviction that there is good worth working for. - Seamus Heaney, Irish poet and likely Hoosier basketball fan.
POTFB
@snarlcakes Part of that is measuring wealth. Not all, part. Asians are the most wealthy Americans, they are first. Whites are next, and they are 4th. It isn't just coincidence. Here is some on that from OECD:
The PISA index of economic, social and cultural status can also be used to order students from the most disadvantaged to the most advantaged within each country and economy, and to create four groups of students of equal size (each comprising 25% of the population of 15-year-old students in each country/economy). In the United States socio-economically advantaged students (the top 25% in terms of socio-economic status) outperformed disadvantaged students (the bottom 25%) by 102 score points in mathematics. This is similar to the average difference between the two groups (93 score points) across OECD countries.
But the big thing is we did make a lot of progress at one time. It has stalled out since. From the Wiki:
The NAEP has since collected and analyzed data through 2008. Overall, the White-Hispanic and the White-Black gap for NAEP scores have significantly decreased since the 1970s.[33] The Black-White Gap demonstrates:[33]
- In mathematics, the gap for 17-year-olds was narrowed by 14 points from 1973 to 2008.
- In reading, the gap for 17-year-olds was narrowed by 24 points from 1971 to 2008.
The Hispanic-White Gap demonstrates:[33]
- In mathematics, the gap for 17-year-olds was narrowed by 12 points from 1973 to 2008.
- In reading, the gap for 17-year-olds was narrowed by 15 points from 1975 to 2008.
A good question might be why that growth has stopped. I have no idea why. Much like Mississippi seeing great results in 4th grade reading, good results in 8th grade. Why isn't the great continuing to 8th?
One thing we have to get rid of is our dogmas. I have absolutely no idea why phoncs works, it makes no sense since so much of our spelling doesn't match our fonix (done obviously to illustrate). But I don't have to know, study after study shows it works. So we should be using phonics even if it makes no sense.
I have seen many stories that the way we teach math in America leads to math anxiety, hence why we turn out lawyers instead of engineers. So maybe we need a pilot program to teach math in the Chinese way, a way that cranks out engineers like water.