@goat bc these things are already vetted. We know pain. We know viability. We know when the important tests are conducted. And we know the opioids administered or attempted to be administered to a baby to assuage the pain to same.
at some point things aren’t pedantic. They aren’t academic. They are black and white. This statute that provides unfettered discretion to a dr is one of those circumstances. It’s evil and vile. The prior law was fine.
at this point no one should call themselves a dem. They are simply the worst of us
Pro choice means no one can choose for others. I personally choose life.Looks like it is based on the physician's judgment "in accordance to accepted standards of care."
If his judgment is wrong, does anyone have standing to sue? Should they have standing?
Why is birth the dividing line and what counts as "birth?" During contractions, can he go into the uterus and kill the fetus?
Pro-choice peeps, what say you on the dividing line/standard? Pro-life peeps, who pays for the health care of a physically non-viable fetus that must be delivered?
@mrhighlife eh the baby is its own body own life own heart own brain. I get the 22 week test. What mass is doing is vile and evil. I hate democrats at this point. Zero respect. The worst people of all
How would you vote on the bill?
I don't know. I'm not familiar with Mass law. What did the bill do? Says here it replaced a statutory list of exemptions to the abortion cutoff date with the medical judgment of doctors. In theory, I'd prefer doctors' judgment over lawmakers'. But I guess it depends what the real world effects are. If the law allows, say, a woman whose fetus develops some kind of catastrophic failure late in the pregnancy such that it would be hopeless to carry it to term to abort that fetus, then okay, fine. If it allows a woman to abort a child because her husband left her for a waitress in month 8, and she no longer wants it, that's not good. So, not enough information.
I'm only here because I think it's a fascinating moral discussion. I have long said the only logical stances on abortion are "abortion on demand whenever" and "no abortion allowed, ever." I think setting a date somewhere in the middle is wishy-washy. And, yet, I have to admit that I'm wishy-washy, too, because I am comfortable with an early term abortion, but not comfortable with a late term abortion.
@aloha-hoosier federalism is vitally important. We saw it with Covid. Dems believe in killing babies. Viable full term babies. Full stop. And I don’t care too much about Butch and the rest upset with grift when the other side is enacting laws to sanction murder.
This is another thread that I hadn't been participating in where you mention me. Your obsession with me is pathological.
I'm dead serious. You are enraged and unwell. Your rants in this thread are Exhibit A. You owe it to yourself and anyone around you to get professional help.
Yes, this is where I was going.I'm not sure 100% where @bradstevens was going with this, but I think the far more interesting questions on this topic are moral, not legal. I mean, the legal are interesting, too, but I think the moral are much more fascinating.
Functionally, what is the difference between aborting a full-term fetus and killing a newborn infant? Well, they have passed through the birth canal (or through an incision in the belly). They have been physically separated from their mother with the severing of the umbilical cord (not necessarily, but if that matters, we can come back to it). They are getting their oxygen from outside the womb. Their nutrients must be administered by some external interaction. Likewise, disposition of waste. Okay, so those things are different. But do any of them matter morally? I find it hard to accept that they do. I find it difficult to draw a distinction between a full-term fetus and a newly born child.
That said, humans have been making that distinction for millennia. Ancient Jewish law assigned greater value to the mother than the childe up until childbirth, and a fetus could be destroyed even in the process of birth to save the mother, until it had begun to emerge from the birth canal, at which point it became a human in its own right, with equal moral rights to the mother.
That said, the same thinking that makes me uncomfortable with very late-term abortion is why I can't justify a full ban on abortion (although, as I've said before, I do think that's where we're headed, anyway). I consider a miscarriage a terrible, sad, tragedy. I don't consider it a moral crime. Sometimes, it might even be a blessing. An early-term abortion is morally, to me, more like a miscarriage than a murder.
Problem with the way I look at it is this: there is no obvious place to draw a bright line. It's just sort of a gradual gray area. It's like Theseus' Ship, but with death.
I was just going to post about how this thread really went the wrong way. Thanks for trying to move it back.
I'd prefer doctors' judgment over lawmakers'.
Not me. Any doctor who says aborting a healthy, viable, full term baby is a medical necessity for the mother or kid full of shit. We need a law prohibiting that.
I'd prefer doctors' judgment over lawmakers'.
Not me. Any doctor who says aborting a healthy, viable, full term baby is a medical necessity for the mother or kid full of shit. We need a law prohibiting that.
Agreed. A federal law is the only answer here. Nice to be on the same page again.
@big-ryan lmao anyone who posts about Trump like you is in desperate need of help. Look in a mirror
My wife had two miscarriages, and unfortunately, I was at sea both times. Those are the reason we have an only child. The D&Cs caused some physical issues so my wife was told she couldn't safely have another baby.
You've shared that before.
IIUC, under current law in a number of states those D&Cs wouldn't be allowed unless or until she went septic.
If we are invoking the Ship of Theseus, how about this twist? Right to lifers tend to be religious, so if we consider a dualistic view of life, is it ever morally wrong to abort an unborn at any stage of the nine months if that’s just a body and not the soul itself?
@big-ryan and yeah while you’re outraged about the paint at the White House I’m outraged about killing full term babies. See the difference? Are you able? Get help