@arthur-dent Rudy adopted much of this in cleaning up nyc. Community policing. But everyone has to buy in. With woke Dems they hate cops. So there’s a disconnect. The woke idiot mayor here. The woke socialist president of the board of alderman marched with a defund shirt. Cops need support. They have a terrible job. But Dems per usual are on the wrong side of everything.
Im willing to listen to any arguments on the matter. We don’t have the best mix now, I don’t think.@jdb and @bradstevens what differences between LA and Berlin lead you to believe LA needs half the police of Berlin? Are you saying Berlin is twice as dangerous and needs more police
You and Gladwell seem to be arguing about a lack of police, as if that is the problem. I fundamentally disagree with that premise, as there are places with far fewer police or law enforcement per capita that don't have these problems. Culture is the biggest difference. That's the problem with police acceptance and trust. There are valid reasons for that, going back to the last century and earlier. But rapping about "F the police" or "187 on the mf'in cops" (btw, lots of that comes from L.A. itself) is just as much of a problem.
Is Gladwell just using a "comp" because of population relativity? Berlin is way more densely populated than L.A., which is more spread out (36% more land area than Berlin) and even partially suburban. Berlin is a very walkable, public-transportation-oriented city. L.A. relies on cars. Berlin is a central hub itself and isn't the base of a much larger surrounding metro area.
L.A. is far more diverse, has more POC. We all know that isn't always a positive thing when it comes to safety and crime because the FBI and other criminal data explicitly says so. Berlin also has less families per capita (seems to be a lot of single people there) than L.A. according to the data and 53% (mind-blowing) are single-child households.
Instead of arguing over whether or not more police would deter crime, let's punish the criminals with much more severe penalties and sentences that deny parole, early reinstatement back into society. That's the softness that has enabled increased criminality.
But comparing Berlin to LA without more ( and maybe he does expound more) is lazy thinking.
And as with almost anything worth talking about, policy wise, the problems and solutions are going to be multi factoral.
1. reparations. means tested. give the worst in the hood a boost and see if it deters the drug trade and petty criminal shit
If you want to donate, be my guest.
@jdb yeah may not do shit. But we already know the money going into programs isn’t working. Defalcation. Piss poor leaders. Outcomes not measured. I’d rather do means tested cash and see what happens.
@jdb I am certain at least poor White communities call police pigs, I know they did in the 70s. I don't think it has changed. Though that word may have been replaced. There was a sense that the police were just out to get you, not that they wanted to help. That is the problem, if the police are seen as an enemy. I think that is still true. And anyone who helped the police was a snitch. Just like the old prison movies, the lowest of the low.
So LA has half the police of Berlin and covers a MUCH larger area and that is good?
So again, you have a cultural problem where there is distrust, but the solution is to simply throw resources and bodies at the problem? This is one where your party threw the police under the bus at every chance they've gotten since Michael Brown, which has caused significant officer shortages in major blue cities (Chicago, Minneapolis, NYC, etc.) And now you want to reverse course and double the police force? It doesn't affect you or I since we don't live there, but that seems like a huge waste of taxpayer resources.
Until the logic makes sense, I can't get behind any idea like this. At the moment, the logic is broken. Also, just because L.A. is a larger land area doesn't necessarily mean you should need more police. There are tons of factors at play, but I was pointing out the attempt to compare apples and oranges just because of population similarities.
Also, I don't know if it exists, but it would be interesting to look at L.A. crime data by area (e.g., Hollywood vs. Koreatown).
@jdb yeah may not do shit. But we already know the money going into programs isn’t working. Defalcation. Piss poor leaders. Outcomes not measured. I’d rather do means tested cash and see what happens.
You can go hang out with Cori Bush. I'm not going to fund such nonsense.
I watched the video. Gladwell argues midway through that Baltimore proves his theory because homicide rates went down while they had fewer arrests over a year period. Set side the statistical illiteracy for a second— the very next thing he argues is that you can’t look at homocide rates for proxies of violent crime because of the surgery point, so you discount places like Memphis (I guess, they weren’t clear on how Memphis factored in).
Do you see the inconsistency there? That’s the kind of stuff that is typical in Gladwell’s thinking.
Id also note we’ve been using community policing in the US since at least the 70s in some places. The results have been mixed.
Id also note we’ve been using community policing in the US since at least the 70s in some places. The results have been mixed.
Earlier you leave open it may work, that's where I am. I have no idea that it will work. But what we ARE doing is failing. We haven't done this at this scale, community policing is much more an afterthought. We don't have the numbers to really do it.
We have the highest prison population in the world. Any idea that simply arresting and locking away works seems to be refuted by that stat. Will more police work, who knows. It is worth trying at least on a trial basis
If we could design a way to try it and all agree what results we'd need to see, for what period of time, and we didn't have other priorities, I agree with you.Id also note we’ve been using community policing in the US since at least the 70s in some places. The results have been mixed.
Earlier you leave open it may work, that's where I am. I have no idea that it will work. But what we ARE doing is failing. We haven't done this at this scale, community policing is much more an afterthought. We don't have the numbers to really do it.
We have the highest prison population in the world. Any idea that simply arresting and locking away works seems to be refuted by that stat. Will more police work, who knows. It is worth trying at least on a trial basis
But that's always the rub, isn't it?
Im willing to listen to any arguments on the matter. We don’t have the best mix now, I don’t think.@jdb and @bradstevens what differences between LA and Berlin lead you to believe LA needs half the police of Berlin? Are you saying Berlin is twice as dangerous and needs more police
You and Gladwell seem to be arguing about a lack of police, as if that is the problem. I fundamentally disagree with that premise, as there are places with far fewer police or law enforcement per capita that don't have these problems. Culture is the biggest difference. That's the problem with police acceptance and trust. There are valid reasons for that, going back to the last century and earlier. But rapping about "F the police" or "187 on the mf'in cops" (btw, lots of that comes from L.A. itself) is just as much of a problem.
Is Gladwell just using a "comp" because of population relativity? Berlin is way more densely populated than L.A., which is more spread out (36% more land area than Berlin) and even partially suburban. Berlin is a very walkable, public-transportation-oriented city. L.A. relies on cars. Berlin is a central hub itself and isn't the base of a much larger surrounding metro area.
L.A. is far more diverse, has more POC. We all know that isn't always a positive thing when it comes to safety and crime because the FBI and other criminal data explicitly says so. Berlin also has less families per capita (seems to be a lot of single people there) than L.A. according to the data and 53% (mind-blowing) are single-child households.
Instead of arguing over whether or not more police would deter crime, let's punish the criminals with much more severe penalties and sentences that deny parole, early reinstatement back into society. That's the softness that has enabled increased criminality.
But comparing Berlin to LA without more ( and maybe he does expound more) is lazy thinking.
And as with almost anything worth talking about, policy wise, the problems and solutions are going to be multi factoral.
I think cameras are a huge benefit to society. Those of us not committing violent crime are willing to sacrifice privacy for the increased probability of getting caught. That should improve deterence, over time.
Technology > more police.
@jdb it might be. But we don’t know. It might cost less and yield better results