@carramrod Ha ha... you're making my initial main point. You're privy to the details of the deal he's spouting about that they should be signing? And who is "they" by the way. It sure seems like he's proposing give them money to shut down their nuclear weapons program. The money he is proposing is larger, so its not exactly the same, you're right. And he is asking them to relinquish all the materials they could use to make nuclear weapons. A decent chunk of those materials likely wouldn't exist if he hadn't backed out of the original deal, but those are pesky details not worth considering. Trumps the deale maker! This is different damn it! Its really sad, actually...
No fuckface. He’s demanding zero enrichment, zero funding of proxies, zero ballistic missile development.
This is a difference in kind from the JCPOA, only a retard that doesn’t know what they’re talking about would conflate the two.
Trump can demand whatever the hell he wants. What will that get? He'll at best get a deal that's very similar to what existed before. Blustering and bombing aren't going to change the reality on the ground in Iran
The reality is that since 2018 the Iranians have gone from having basically no highly enriched uranium to now having enough for 11 bombs.
The reality is he'll at best get a deal that's very similar to what existed before 2018.
What kind of stupid do you have to be to call that a success story?
You don't think he navigated us out the financial collapse he inherited fairly well?
You think he did? I'm personally not a fan of all the shenanigans he oversaw with the auto industry. He literally screwed over pension funds and individuals that held bonds in the restructuring.
Hope is not optimism, which expects things to turn out well, but something rooted in the conviction that there is good worth working for. - Seamus Heaney, Irish poet and likely Hoosier basketball fan.
POTFB
I'm all for trying to change people's behavior towards those they consider their political opponents and tamp things down. But those people are important to address not because they are voters, but because they are acting in a way that actually matters and has real effects on our civil discourse.@bradstevens I did focus on individual voters... but the title implies the parties propping up of their desired candidates. And I'll double down on my direct attacks towards specific voters that spend nearly all their time tearing down their "ops", as the kids say these days, without taking really any stock in who they support, the damage they're doing. And being open to more moderate people that that largely share their views, but maybe are a little more realistic, and open to compromises and leading for larger chunks of people.
I also said everyone deserves their vote. And I urge EVERYONE to use it. I just wish the hard liners, on both sides, would have dramatically less sway and influence, than they currently do.
Again, though, shaming and blaming won't work. I try not to, but I fall into it every once in awhile, and it never works.
Re the hardliners, I agree totally. But at this point, I think our system incentivizes it so that means we will get more of it.
@carramrod Ha ha... you're making my initial main point. You're privy to the details of the deal he's spouting about that they should be signing? And who is "they" by the way. It sure seems like he's proposing give them money to shut down their nuclear weapons program. The money he is proposing is larger, so its not exactly the same, you're right. And he is asking them to relinquish all the materials they could use to make nuclear weapons. A decent chunk of those materials likely wouldn't exist if he hadn't backed out of the original deal, but those are pesky details not worth considering. Trumps the deale maker! This is different damn it! Its really sad, actually...
No fuckface. He’s demanding zero enrichment, zero funding of proxies, zero ballistic missile development.
This is a difference in kind from the JCPOA, only a retard that doesn’t know what they’re talking about would conflate the two.
Trump can demand whatever the hell he wants. What will that get? He'll at best get a deal that's very similar to what existed before. Blustering and bombing aren't going to change the reality on the ground in Iran
The reality is that since 2018 the Iranians have gone from having basically no highly enriched uranium to now having enough for 11 bombs.
The reality is he'll at best get a deal that's very similar to what existed before 2018.
What kind of stupid do you have to be to call that a success story?
Agreed. Trump hates Obama. Trump pulled out of the JCPOA because Obama was a signatory, plain and simple. The JCPOA wasn't perfect (sunset provisions, for example), but it was far better than what Trump replaced it with, which was nothing. Same with Trump railing against the ACA. He hates it because it's Obama's but Trump had nothing better, not to this day.
Back to Iran. Trump will get the Strait reopened (which was a problem HE created) and, as you said, otherwise probably something on a par with what Obama brokered in 2015. But it will be billed as a massive achievement, like nobody's ever seen before. And the sheep will similarly proclaim it as among the greatest deals ever made.
Trump's legacy will be a trail of chaos that made governance feel like a never-ending tantrum. Facts were optional, norms were disposable and division was treated as a feature rather than a flaw. Noice over substance, grievance over progress. Thirty-three more months of this shit but we'll get through it.
@hooky I think math shows that he did. Could he have allowed some companies to fail, and see what would have happened? Sure. But we don't really know what would have happened had he done that. And obviously there are a myriad of other ways he could have navigated everyone through those times, saved some thing like you mentioned, gave up some other things... but the original point by COH is he didn't think Obama improved anything during his presidency. I think he improved the financial situation for millions of people. Math tells me did, in a number of ways, in a number of sectors and industries. I see that as a fact. Its not a fact that he chose the best path. Or the only path that would have worked. Just that what he did do... did result in the financial meltdown turning in to many years of growth.
Could he have allowed some companies to fail, and see what would have happened? Sure. But we don't really know what would have happened had he done that. And obviously there are a myriad of other ways he could have navigated everyone through those times, saved some thing like you mentioned, gave up some other things... but the original point by COH is he didn't think Obama improved anything during his presidency. I think he improved the financial situation for millions of people. Math tells me did, in a number of ways, in a number of sectors and industries. I see that as a fact. Its not a fact that he chose the best path. Or the only path that would have worked. Just that what he did do... did result in the financial meltdown turning in to many years of growth.
Appreciate you coming over and contributing to the (mostly) sane discussion.
Obama was a victim of his own success. He got everyone's Hope up so far (freaking Indiana voted for him, a black Democrat!!!) that all the Change people were expecting (no matter what it might be) was sure to fall short.
Lot of truth in that.Could he have allowed some companies to fail, and see what would have happened? Sure. But we don't really know what would have happened had he done that. And obviously there are a myriad of other ways he could have navigated everyone through those times, saved some thing like you mentioned, gave up some other things... but the original point by COH is he didn't think Obama improved anything during his presidency. I think he improved the financial situation for millions of people. Math tells me did, in a number of ways, in a number of sectors and industries. I see that as a fact. Its not a fact that he chose the best path. Or the only path that would have worked. Just that what he did do... did result in the financial meltdown turning in to many years of growth.
Appreciate you coming over and contributing to the (mostly) sane discussion.
Obama was a victim of his own success. He got everyone's Hope up so far (freaking Indiana voted for him, a black Democrat!!!) that all the Change people were expecting (no matter what it might be) was sure to fall short.
@hooky I think math shows that he did. Could he have allowed some companies to fail, and see what would have happened? Sure. But we don't really know what would have happened had he done that. And obviously there are a myriad of other ways he could have navigated everyone through those times, saved some thing like you mentioned, gave up some other things... but the original point by COH is he didn't think Obama improved anything during his presidency. I think he improved the financial situation for millions of people. Math tells me did, in a number of ways, in a number of sectors and industries. I see that as a fact. Its not a fact that he chose the best path. Or the only path that would have worked. Just that what he did do... did result in the financial meltdown turning in to many years of growth.
My disdain isn't about letting a company fail or not. Its about forcing bondholders to take less than they could have gotten under existing bankruptcy law. People bitch about Trump circumventing the law, but give Obama a pass every time. Guy was horrible and lied through his teeth throughout his 8 years.
Maybe we can start a thread about the extrajudicial killing of a US citizen in separate thread next time people complain about war crimes while harkening back to Obamas Camelot.
He was worse than the guy before him, just like every dude after him.
Hope is not optimism, which expects things to turn out well, but something rooted in the conviction that there is good worth working for. - Seamus Heaney, Irish poet and likely Hoosier basketball fan.
POTFB
The problem is the government is spending wayyyyyyyy too much money and needs a 25-50% haircut.
The problem with the left is anyone reasonable has left the party because reasonable people can count. Sorry, you're getting only sh#t libs moving forward. The best would be AOC because she is at least hot and I'd enjoy looking at her for 4 years.
As for the right, DeSantis is the best and then Rubio.
@co-hoosier You don't think he navigated us out the financial collapse he inherited fairly well? Also, ironically, we were also in a lot better position when he left, than when he started, in the oil arm wrestling match. With domestic production way up, and relatively decent relations with the middle east on going. Many, many misteps, fall shorts, all out mistakes... Obamacare, and its rollout, was a disaster, as an example. And immigration and border security was trending down, for sure, when he left office. But to say he didn't leave "anything" better than he found it?... well it isn't remotely accurate.
I voted for Obama and he was a bad President. Obamacare was terrible for the working and middle classes and has only further gutted them. It's probably the worse piece of legislation in the past 30 years.
Also, gas prices were extremely high for about 4 years. Controlled for inflation the price of gas from 2011-2014 was the same as it is currently or higher. He didn't pull us out of anything. He prolonged it. Besides being folksy, he sucked.
@snarlcakes caused health insurance to skyrocket but did cover pre-existing and 08 was damn bad. First time in my working career I remember thinking wow. So he inherited some shit
@bar-down He inherited a potential impending depression, and presided over a pretty remarkable turnaround. Was he THE reason for the turnaround? Probably not, but he was the one steering the ship. And as I've posted many times now, he was far from perfect, or even great, but comparing him to Biden and Trump in competency, honesty... really most any Presidential measure... is laughable. He made many mistakes. He lied plenty, I'm sure. But the scope and magnitude of the misteps and lies, under Trump, Biden, Trump... dwarfs anything we've ever seen... in my opinion.
@bar-down He inherited a potential impending depression, and presided over a pretty remarkable turnaround. Was he THE reason for the turnaround? Probably not, but he was the one steering the ship. And as I've posted many times now, he was far from perfect, or even great, but comparing him to Biden and Trump in competency, honesty... really most any Presidential measure... is laughable. He made many mistakes. He lied plenty, I'm sure. But the scope and magnitude of the misteps and lies, under Trump, Biden, Trump... dwarfs anything we've ever seen... in my opinion.
Policy wise Obama is much worse than Trump. Trump obviously sucks at demeanor, decor, being proper, and on an on.
@snarlcakes That's one way to look at it... Maybe the ship was on auto pilot, but he was the one in the captain seat. He inherited near financial Armageddon. And the Armageddon never happened. In fact, in most industries, it flipped rather quickly, and began a relatively long cycle of growth and prosperity. Usually, the leaders get credit for things like that. Our current one sure likes to take it, basically every day, whether warranted or not.
@iunorth getting gov out of the way and just guiding the ship is the best we can hope for really. When I think of my business it ha experienced two major problems. Both gov induced. Covid and tariffs. I never worry about getting customers. Making money. I worry about what will gov do next.