It's mostly productivity, some personal growth and flourishing in general, but even that must carry with it some indoctrination into a preferred set of cultural values. I don't like the illiberal values of the Woke and think they are detrimental to productivity and personal growth and flourishing.free education is failing.
I've not been a shrinking violet in critiquing the education system on this site. I think it's one of the first things I posted about w/r/t anti-racism movements to end honors classes in middle and high schools.
But the reason a lot of kids are having problems right now has many reasons--I'd suggest that the education system isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with whether it is "free" or not. I think the better causes to address are politicization of pedagogy and lack of parental involvement, neglect, or parental ignorance.
Assuming our finances could handle it, I'd be all in favor of a push to make all state universities free to US residents for particular majors (which would, obviously, require some regulation of professor and administrator salaries--which I'm sure they would be in favor of since they are mostly leftists, amIright?).
What's the purpose of education? Is it to prepare future generations to be productive in society, or is it to indoctrinate them into our preferred set of cultural values?
I think the answer to that question will inform the answer to the debate between you and CO.H.
But some of the values I think we should teach is a certain level of tolerance, love of free and open inquiry, and a hope to try to be objective (even if it might be impossible). If those lead one to Woke beliefs, so be it.
I agree that tolerance and objectivity should be two of the cornerstones of any liberal education.
But, yeah, ultimately, just like religion and patriotism and all the other things we learn while we are young, education is, at its core, basically just brainwashing. We are trying to mold young kids into good citizens. I just hope during the process, we also accidentally teach them how to think.
It's mostly productivity, some personal growth and flourishing in general, but even that must carry with it some indoctrination into a preferred set of cultural values. I don't like the illiberal values of the Woke and think they are detrimental to productivity and personal growth and flourishing.free education is failing.
I've not been a shrinking violet in critiquing the education system on this site. I think it's one of the first things I posted about w/r/t anti-racism movements to end honors classes in middle and high schools.
But the reason a lot of kids are having problems right now has many reasons--I'd suggest that the education system isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with whether it is "free" or not. I think the better causes to address are politicization of pedagogy and lack of parental involvement, neglect, or parental ignorance.
Assuming our finances could handle it, I'd be all in favor of a push to make all state universities free to US residents for particular majors (which would, obviously, require some regulation of professor and administrator salaries--which I'm sure they would be in favor of since they are mostly leftists, amIright?).
What's the purpose of education? Is it to prepare future generations to be productive in society, or is it to indoctrinate them into our preferred set of cultural values?
I think the answer to that question will inform the answer to the debate between you and CO.H.
But some of the values I think we should teach is a certain level of tolerance, love of free and open inquiry, and a hope to try to be objective (even if it might be impossible). If those lead one to Woke beliefs, so be it.
You're in 8th grade in the inner city. You wake up at 7:00 a.m. on your own, because your dad is gone and your mom is at work already/still asleep/drunk (take your pick). There is no breakfast food, so you get yourself ready quickly, before you wake up your 3 younger siblings to get them going for school as well. You really want to make the bus, so you can get to school for breakfast. You just make it.
In class, the teacher has to deal with several students who have extensive IEPs (many behavioral), a small group of ESL students, and a few students who are just disruptive jerks with parents who will completely back their shenanigans.
At the end of the day, still no parental supervision (see possible reasons above), but you do a little homework before getting the little ones to bed. Finally, your mom comes home, and is too tired to tell you to stop playing video games in your room. You stay up past 3:00 a.m., and if you are lucky, there are no gunshots in your apartment complex.
You wake up tired at 7:00 a.m., for another day. (BTW, let's take a best case scenario, and say mom is gone so much because she is working multiple jobs to make enough money to pay for stuff that has risen in cost due to non-inflationary tariffs.)
I guess our current educational system does suck.
.
It's mostly productivity, some personal growth and flourishing in general, but even that must carry with it some indoctrination into a preferred set of cultural values. I don't like the illiberal values of the Woke and think they are detrimental to productivity and personal growth and flourishing.free education is failing.
I've not been a shrinking violet in critiquing the education system on this site. I think it's one of the first things I posted about w/r/t anti-racism movements to end honors classes in middle and high schools.
But the reason a lot of kids are having problems right now has many reasons--I'd suggest that the education system isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with whether it is "free" or not. I think the better causes to address are politicization of pedagogy and lack of parental involvement, neglect, or parental ignorance.
Assuming our finances could handle it, I'd be all in favor of a push to make all state universities free to US residents for particular majors (which would, obviously, require some regulation of professor and administrator salaries--which I'm sure they would be in favor of since they are mostly leftists, amIright?).
What's the purpose of education? Is it to prepare future generations to be productive in society, or is it to indoctrinate them into our preferred set of cultural values?
I think the answer to that question will inform the answer to the debate between you and CO.H.
But some of the values I think we should teach is a certain level of tolerance, love of free and open inquiry, and a hope to try to be objective (even if it might be impossible). If those lead one to Woke beliefs, so be it.
You're in 8th grade in the inner city. You wake up at 7:00 a.m. on your own, because your dad is gone and your mom is at work already/still asleep/drunk (take your pick). There is no breakfast food, so you get yourself ready quickly, before you wake up your 3 younger siblings to get them going for school as well. You really want to make the bus, so you can get to school for breakfast. You just make it.
In class, the teacher has to deal with several students who have extensive IEPs (many behavioral), a small group of ESL students, and a few students who are just disruptive jerks with parents who will completely back their shenanigans.
At the end of the day, still no parental supervision (see possible reasons above), but you do a little homework before getting the little ones to bed. Finally, your mom comes home, and is too tired to tell you to stop playing video games in your room. You stay up past 3:00 a.m., and if you are lucky, there are no gunshots in your apartment complex.
You wake up tired at 7:00 a.m., for another day. (BTW, let's take a best case scenario, and say mom is gone so much because she is working multiple jobs to make enough money to pay for stuff that has risen in cost due to non-inflationary tariffs.)
I guess our current educational system does suck.
Someone has seen too many episodes of The Wire.
Reality:
Mom has a job with the city that provides good benefits and regular hours. She’s not good at it, but she got it because the city has gender and racial quotas that effectively eliminate any competent competition. Also, they essentially can’t fire her.
Even with the job she is still eligible for SNAP benefits to the tune of $2500 a month.
The inner city school you attend spends $35k per pupil per year. They give you a laptop in 6th grade, no charge. They have more than enough resources to manage any student with fictitious or real special requirements.
Despite this, you’ve been raised in an environment that inculcates in you a sense that you’ve been wronged. Teachers, familial adults, etc. You’ve never been disciplined in your life or had to bear any real responsibility. Because of this you develop anti-social behavior.
You are as ignorant of this as you are of what kids go through when they walk out of that school.It's mostly productivity, some personal growth and flourishing in general, but even that must carry with it some indoctrination into a preferred set of cultural values. I don't like the illiberal values of the Woke and think they are detrimental to productivity and personal growth and flourishing.free education is failing.
I've not been a shrinking violet in critiquing the education system on this site. I think it's one of the first things I posted about w/r/t anti-racism movements to end honors classes in middle and high schools.
But the reason a lot of kids are having problems right now has many reasons--I'd suggest that the education system isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with whether it is "free" or not. I think the better causes to address are politicization of pedagogy and lack of parental involvement, neglect, or parental ignorance.
Assuming our finances could handle it, I'd be all in favor of a push to make all state universities free to US residents for particular majors (which would, obviously, require some regulation of professor and administrator salaries--which I'm sure they would be in favor of since they are mostly leftists, amIright?).
What's the purpose of education? Is it to prepare future generations to be productive in society, or is it to indoctrinate them into our preferred set of cultural values?
I think the answer to that question will inform the answer to the debate between you and CO.H.
But some of the values I think we should teach is a certain level of tolerance, love of free and open inquiry, and a hope to try to be objective (even if it might be impossible). If those lead one to Woke beliefs, so be it.
You're in 8th grade in the inner city. You wake up at 7:00 a.m. on your own, because your dad is gone and your mom is at work already/still asleep/drunk (take your pick). There is no breakfast food, so you get yourself ready quickly, before you wake up your 3 younger siblings to get them going for school as well. You really want to make the bus, so you can get to school for breakfast. You just make it.
In class, the teacher has to deal with several students who have extensive IEPs (many behavioral), a small group of ESL students, and a few students who are just disruptive jerks with parents who will completely back their shenanigans.
At the end of the day, still no parental supervision (see possible reasons above), but you do a little homework before getting the little ones to bed. Finally, your mom comes home, and is too tired to tell you to stop playing video games in your room. You stay up past 3:00 a.m., and if you are lucky, there are no gunshots in your apartment complex.
You wake up tired at 7:00 a.m., for another day. (BTW, let's take a best case scenario, and say mom is gone so much because she is working multiple jobs to make enough money to pay for stuff that has risen in cost due to non-inflationary tariffs.)
I guess our current educational system does suck.
Someone has seen too many episodes of The Wire.
Reality:
Mom has a job with the city that provides good benefits and regular hours. She’s not good at it, but she got it because the city has gender and racial quotas that effectively eliminate any competent competition. Also, they essentially can’t fire her.
Even with the job she is still eligible for SNAP benefits to the tune of $2500 a month.
The inner city school you attend spends $35k per pupil per year. They give you a laptop in 6th grade, no charge. They have more than enough resources to manage any student with fictitious or real special requirements.
Despite this, you’ve been raised in an environment that inculcates in you a sense that you’ve been wronged. Teachers, familial adults, etc. You’ve never been disciplined in your life or had to bear any real responsibility. Because of this you develop anti-social behavior.
But, what would I know?
.
Isn't that just a four paragraph description of "lack of parental involvement?"It's mostly productivity, some personal growth and flourishing in general, but even that must carry with it some indoctrination into a preferred set of cultural values. I don't like the illiberal values of the Woke and think they are detrimental to productivity and personal growth and flourishing.free education is failing.
I've not been a shrinking violet in critiquing the education system on this site. I think it's one of the first things I posted about w/r/t anti-racism movements to end honors classes in middle and high schools.
But the reason a lot of kids are having problems right now has many reasons--I'd suggest that the education system isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with whether it is "free" or not. I think the better causes to address are politicization of pedagogy and lack of parental involvement, neglect, or parental ignorance.
Assuming our finances could handle it, I'd be all in favor of a push to make all state universities free to US residents for particular majors (which would, obviously, require some regulation of professor and administrator salaries--which I'm sure they would be in favor of since they are mostly leftists, amIright?).
What's the purpose of education? Is it to prepare future generations to be productive in society, or is it to indoctrinate them into our preferred set of cultural values?
I think the answer to that question will inform the answer to the debate between you and CO.H.
But some of the values I think we should teach is a certain level of tolerance, love of free and open inquiry, and a hope to try to be objective (even if it might be impossible). If those lead one to Woke beliefs, so be it.
You're in 8th grade in the inner city. You wake up at 7:00 a.m. on your own, because your dad is gone and your mom is at work already/still asleep/drunk (take your pick). There is no breakfast food, so you get yourself ready quickly, before you wake up your 3 younger siblings to get them going for school as well. You really want to make the bus, so you can get to school for breakfast. You just make it.
In class, the teacher has to deal with several students who have extensive IEPs (many behavioral), a small group of ESL students, and a few students who are just disruptive jerks with parents who will completely back their shenanigans.
At the end of the day, still no parental supervision (see possible reasons above), but you do a little homework before getting the little ones to bed. Finally, your mom comes home, and is too tired to tell you to stop playing video games in your room. You stay up past 3:00 a.m., and if you are lucky, there are no gunshots in your apartment complex.
You wake up tired at 7:00 a.m., for another day. (BTW, let's take a best case scenario, and say mom is gone so much because she is working multiple jobs to make enough money to pay for stuff that has risen in cost due to non-inflationary tariffs.)
I guess our current educational system does suck.
You are as ignorant of this as you are of what kids go through when they walk out of that school.It's mostly productivity, some personal growth and flourishing in general, but even that must carry with it some indoctrination into a preferred set of cultural values. I don't like the illiberal values of the Woke and think they are detrimental to productivity and personal growth and flourishing.free education is failing.
I've not been a shrinking violet in critiquing the education system on this site. I think it's one of the first things I posted about w/r/t anti-racism movements to end honors classes in middle and high schools.
But the reason a lot of kids are having problems right now has many reasons--I'd suggest that the education system isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with whether it is "free" or not. I think the better causes to address are politicization of pedagogy and lack of parental involvement, neglect, or parental ignorance.
Assuming our finances could handle it, I'd be all in favor of a push to make all state universities free to US residents for particular majors (which would, obviously, require some regulation of professor and administrator salaries--which I'm sure they would be in favor of since they are mostly leftists, amIright?).
What's the purpose of education? Is it to prepare future generations to be productive in society, or is it to indoctrinate them into our preferred set of cultural values?
I think the answer to that question will inform the answer to the debate between you and CO.H.
But some of the values I think we should teach is a certain level of tolerance, love of free and open inquiry, and a hope to try to be objective (even if it might be impossible). If those lead one to Woke beliefs, so be it.
You're in 8th grade in the inner city. You wake up at 7:00 a.m. on your own, because your dad is gone and your mom is at work already/still asleep/drunk (take your pick). There is no breakfast food, so you get yourself ready quickly, before you wake up your 3 younger siblings to get them going for school as well. You really want to make the bus, so you can get to school for breakfast. You just make it.
In class, the teacher has to deal with several students who have extensive IEPs (many behavioral), a small group of ESL students, and a few students who are just disruptive jerks with parents who will completely back their shenanigans.
At the end of the day, still no parental supervision (see possible reasons above), but you do a little homework before getting the little ones to bed. Finally, your mom comes home, and is too tired to tell you to stop playing video games in your room. You stay up past 3:00 a.m., and if you are lucky, there are no gunshots in your apartment complex.
You wake up tired at 7:00 a.m., for another day. (BTW, let's take a best case scenario, and say mom is gone so much because she is working multiple jobs to make enough money to pay for stuff that has risen in cost due to non-inflationary tariffs.)
I guess our current educational system does suck.
Someone has seen too many episodes of The Wire.
Reality:
Mom has a job with the city that provides good benefits and regular hours. She’s not good at it, but she got it because the city has gender and racial quotas that effectively eliminate any competent competition. Also, they essentially can’t fire her.
Even with the job she is still eligible for SNAP benefits to the tune of $2500 a month.
The inner city school you attend spends $35k per pupil per year. They give you a laptop in 6th grade, no charge. They have more than enough resources to manage any student with fictitious or real special requirements.
Despite this, you’ve been raised in an environment that inculcates in you a sense that you’ve been wronged. Teachers, familial adults, etc. You’ve never been disciplined in your life or had to bear any real responsibility. Because of this you develop anti-social behavior.
But, what would I know?
At points in your original post you appear close to correctly diagnosing that under-resourced city schools are not the reason behind poor student performance. They spend more per pupil than their suburban and rural counter parts after all.
It’s when you veer off into some imagined sob story about a 13 year old taking care of their three younger siblings that we all need to laugh in your face. I’m sure that has happened before. Casting it as normality is an absurdity though. The picture I paint is much closer to “normal”.
Inner city kids don’t achieve academically because their families don’t prioritize it. No amount of school resources can overcome that.
Single motherhood has a lot to do with it. A culture of entitlement, bitterness and learned helplessness as well.
Not poverty though. That’s way down the list of issues given the excess of welfare benefits available to this theoretical single mother. Everything from housing and utilities to food to healthcare is dirt cheap to free.
Exactly. You two are making my point, even though Farva has no real clue of the reality of living in poverty in the inner city. Others want to blame a shitty educational system, though. It’s an easy, lazy target.Isn't that just a four paragraph description of "lack of parental involvement?"It's mostly productivity, some personal growth and flourishing in general, but even that must carry with it some indoctrination into a preferred set of cultural values. I don't like the illiberal values of the Woke and think they are detrimental to productivity and personal growth and flourishing.free education is failing.
I've not been a shrinking violet in critiquing the education system on this site. I think it's one of the first things I posted about w/r/t anti-racism movements to end honors classes in middle and high schools.
But the reason a lot of kids are having problems right now has many reasons--I'd suggest that the education system isn't ideal, but that has nothing to do with whether it is "free" or not. I think the better causes to address are politicization of pedagogy and lack of parental involvement, neglect, or parental ignorance.
Assuming our finances could handle it, I'd be all in favor of a push to make all state universities free to US residents for particular majors (which would, obviously, require some regulation of professor and administrator salaries--which I'm sure they would be in favor of since they are mostly leftists, amIright?).
What's the purpose of education? Is it to prepare future generations to be productive in society, or is it to indoctrinate them into our preferred set of cultural values?
I think the answer to that question will inform the answer to the debate between you and CO.H.
But some of the values I think we should teach is a certain level of tolerance, love of free and open inquiry, and a hope to try to be objective (even if it might be impossible). If those lead one to Woke beliefs, so be it.
You're in 8th grade in the inner city. You wake up at 7:00 a.m. on your own, because your dad is gone and your mom is at work already/still asleep/drunk (take your pick). There is no breakfast food, so you get yourself ready quickly, before you wake up your 3 younger siblings to get them going for school as well. You really want to make the bus, so you can get to school for breakfast. You just make it.
In class, the teacher has to deal with several students who have extensive IEPs (many behavioral), a small group of ESL students, and a few students who are just disruptive jerks with parents who will completely back their shenanigans.
At the end of the day, still no parental supervision (see possible reasons above), but you do a little homework before getting the little ones to bed. Finally, your mom comes home, and is too tired to tell you to stop playing video games in your room. You stay up past 3:00 a.m., and if you are lucky, there are no gunshots in your apartment complex.
You wake up tired at 7:00 a.m., for another day. (BTW, let's take a best case scenario, and say mom is gone so much because she is working multiple jobs to make enough money to pay for stuff that has risen in cost due to non-inflationary tariffs.)
I guess our current educational system does suck.
.
It’s not just poverty, it’s not just socioeconomic status, & there are many articles out there that support this…
@bulk-vh aunt taught in the city public school system in the hood for 30 plus years. Your day in the life is to the minute perfect
@bradstevens it is but it’s deeper than that. So many of these parents, single parents, are in survival mode. How do you increase parental involvement when you work a 9-5 then do gig work all night to keep the electricity on.
@bradstevens it is but it’s deeper than that. So many of these parents, single parents, are in survival mode. How do you increase parental involvement when you work a 9-5 then do gig work all night to keep the electricity on.
Don't forget, after you get home, you suddenly have to worry even about the electricity, because your last delivery was some asshole who ordered crab legs from red lobster, and then fifteen minutes after you delivered it, he edited his tip down to zero because they didn't give him enough butter.
@bradstevens it is but it’s deeper than that. So many of these parents, single parents, are in survival mode. How do you increase parental involvement when you work a 9-5 then do gig work all night to keep the electricity on.
Don't forget, after you get home, you suddenly have to worry even about the electricity, because your last delivery was some asshole who ordered crab legs from red lobster, and then fifteen minutes after you delivered it, he edited his tip down to zero because they didn't give him enough butter.
You hit a rough patch, Goat?
@bradstevens it is but it’s deeper than that. So many of these parents, single parents, are in survival mode. How do you increase parental involvement when you work a 9-5 then do gig work all night to keep the electricity on.
Don't forget, after you get home, you suddenly have to worry even about the electricity, because your last delivery was some asshole who ordered crab legs from red lobster, and then fifteen minutes after you delivered it, he edited his tip down to zero because they didn't give him enough butter.
You hit a rough patch, Goat?
I'd rather be homeless than DoorDash.
I realize this, but my point is that we have to identify the correct causes of poor performance--the schools being free isn't one of them. (Nor, by the way, is "racism" in education or the existence of honors classes.)@bradstevens it is but it’s deeper than that. So many of these parents, single parents, are in survival mode. How do you increase parental involvement when you work a 9-5 then do gig work all night to keep the electricity on.
Once we have some sort of agreement on that, we can then move to look for solutions.