But for your reasonsing here, I think there are two problems. First, it has nothing to do with the policy. The policy did not say teachers could withhold the info if they thought it in the best interests of the child (which I would have a huge problem with since they aren't qualified to make that call--see below). Instead, it said:
the two challenged their district’s policy barring school employees from telling parents about a student’s transgender status without the student’s consent
I said from the outset that I hadn't even read the link, much less possessed any knowledge about it*. I was simply offering a reason why a teacher might not share particular information about a child with a parent.
Second, it leads to absurd results. Based on your rationale, it would be OK for a school to refuse to tell a parent if a child was sexually assaulted on school grounds or had told a teacher that she was raped if that teacher didn't think the parents would react well to the news.
Of course, it also violates the parents' right to raise their children in the way they see fit. Again, we're in highly charged, contested political waters here. In these situations, the teachers should not trump the parents' beliefs.
Your take also leads to absurd results. Let's say a kid goes to a guidance counselor and says, "I think I'm gay" or "I think I want to convert to Judaism" but adds "but please don't tell my parents; I'm not ready to discuss this with them until I figure out how I feel." I'm guessing you'd agree that the counselor would be right to keep the kid's confidences despite what it might mean for the right of the parents to raise the kid "as they see fit." Correct?
I do think that parents should be the primary force in raising children. But sometimes children need access to others than their parents for advice. Maybe they can go to friends for some things. But maybe they need an adult. Maybe they don't have a cool uncle they can talk to. Maybe, like for many, many kids, the adults they spend the most time with outside their parents are teachers and school officials. What potential damage might we do if we make it known to kids that these avenues of adult counsel are shut to them because their secrets will not remain secret?
I dunno. I don't see how a strict policy can even be laid down on this. I think there are far too many situational details that would dramatically affect what is and is not the best course of action in any particular instance.
*NB: So, yes, if the policy in question is that teachers cannot tell parents about it, then I agree that's a bad policy for the same reasons that I think compelled reporting would be a bad policy.
Let's say a kid goes to a guidance counselor and says, "I think I'm gay" or "I think I want to convert to Judaism" but adds "but please don't tell my parents; I'm not ready to discuss this with them until I figure out how I feel." I'm guessing you'd agree that the counselor would be right to keep the kid's confidences despite what it might mean for the right of the parents to raise the kid "as they see fit." Correct?
I'm thinking we had this same type of discussion maybe ten years ago about this in the gay context. Now it's being discussed in the trans context. Have we learned anything over the years?
@unclemark I don't know what discussion was had but there is nothing similar about trans and gay. The latter is reversible. Experimental. Doesn't involve doctors, hormone meds, irreversible mutilations, etc. We've fought like crazy people in my district over the gender support insanity that we've seen. I mean it when I say that Dems are a cancer. That they target our children is unconscionable.
I think you have the burden of proof here to show the damage. Otherwise, the default rule should be to inform the parents.What potential damage might we do if we make it known to kids that these avenues of adult counsel are shut to them because their secrets will not remain secret?
I'd note you added a layer of complexity here that is not present in the lawsuit or the OP by changing the adult to a counselor, who has a better chance to be trained in dealing with these issues, from a teacher.
I'd also say, I can't imagine many parents going along with a system where the government could force a kid to spend all this time with government employees and then allow those government employees to hide crucial information from the parents about the child's emotional or spiritual well-being. Each such choice would obviously involve a value judgment by the state employee about the particular revelation in place of the parents'. For example, you used Judaism in your example. But let's say it was Satanism. Different teachers are going to react differently to that. Or, instead of homosexuality, let's say it was bestiality. What do you think a teacher would do there? Should do? Actually, the best example here might be abortion--do you believe a teacher should hide from a parent the fact that a child is pregnant, if the child asks that they not say anything so the child can get an abortion, because her parents probably wouldn't allow it? Are you really comfortable with the state making that complex, thorny moral judgment over the family?
(Because there are dishonest and stupid people here: No, I'm not saying I believe homosexuality=bestiality. I'm coming up with alternative sexual orientations that some--very few, in the case of bestiality, I'd guess--believe are harmless and some believe are abhorrent. If that's offensive to anyone, replace it with some sexual orientation or kink of your choice).
Did you ever vote Dem in your life? Have you always thought they were a cancer, or did that opinion begin with the crazier woke stuff in the last 10 years?@unclemark I don't know what discussion was had but there is nothing similar about trans and gay. The latter is reversible. Experimental. Doesn't involve doctors, hormone meds, irreversible mutilations, etc. We've fought like crazy people in my district over the gender support insanity that we've seen. I mean it when I say that Dems are a cancer. That they target our children is unconscionable.
@unclemark I don't know what discussion was had but there is nothing similar about trans and gay. The latter is reversible. Experimental. Doesn't involve doctors, hormone meds, irreversible mutilations, etc. We've fought like crazy people in my district over the gender support insanity that we've seen. I mean it when I say that Dems are a cancer. That they target our children is unconscionable.
Target them for what, specifically? To what end?
Your take also leads to absurd results. Let's say a kid goes to a guidance counselor and says, "I think I'm gay" or "I think I want to convert to Judaism" but adds "but please don't tell my parents; I'm not ready to discuss this with them until I figure out how I feel." I'm guessing you'd agree that the counselor would be right to keep the kid's confidences despite what it might mean for the right of the parents to raise the kid "as they see fit." Correct?
I don't think that's absurd. You might not like it, but it's not absurd. The rape example is absurd and your rationale would support it.
@bradstevens 100 percent with the advent of The Squad and the radical left. Woke times. Dems before that were totally normal. Just viewed things like war and trickle down etc. differently. If a Dem one then it was like oh well. I hope they do well! No biggie. Now it's like life or death. Dems want to change things that are so fundamental to who we are as a people and a country.
@unclemark To promote their virtue signaling insanity. I watch many of the Real Housewives series. The one woman, all three of her children are gay and one is transitioning. Do you think that's a coincidence or do you think possibly that's being pushed? Of course it's being pushed. And believe me I know there are some not coming out because the environment no longer feels conducive. That's a shame but wait until they turn 18 AND KNOW so that they aren't doing it as a fad or because their loony lefty parents want to show just how woke they are.
P.S. Where's Real Housewives of Carmel?!
I'll tell ya! Never happening?!!!!! Because we're Republicans!
I think you have the burden of proof here to show the damage. Otherwise, the default rule should be to inform the parents.What potential damage might we do if we make it known to kids that these avenues of adult counsel are shut to them because their secrets will not remain secret?
I'd note you added a layer of complexity here that is not present in the lawsuit or the OP by changing the adult to a counselor, who has a better chance to be trained in dealing with these issues, from a teacher.
I'd also say, I can't imagine many parents going along with a system where the government could force a kid to spend all this time with government employees and then allow those government employees to hide crucial information from the parents about the child's emotional or spiritual well-being. Each such choice would obviously involve a value judgment by the state employee about the particular revelation in place of the parents'. For example, you used Judaism in your example. But let's say it was Satanism. Different teachers are going to react differently to that. Or, instead of homosexuality, let's say it was bestiality. What do you think a teacher would do there? Should do? Actually, the best example here might be abortion--do you believe a teacher should hide from a parent the fact that a child is pregnant, if the child asks that they not say anything so the child can get an abortion, because her parents probably wouldn't allow it? Are you really comfortable with the state making that complex, thorny moral judgment over the family?
(Because there are dishonest and stupid people here: No, I'm not saying I believe homosexuality=bestiality. I'm coming up with alternative sexual orientations that some--very few, in the case of bestiality, I'd guess--believe are harmless and some believe are abhorrent. If that's offensive to anyone, replace it with some sexual orientation or kink of your choice).
I'd say that anything a teacher or other trusted adult is told in confidence should remain in confidence, excepting concerns over self harm by the child or to others. That said, I also do not believe there should be any kind of school policy on such matters, one way or the other. The school system should have no rigid policy that each kid or adult gets shoehorned into following.
Mcmurt, please, please, please come back!!! Read that post! She's your sister spirit!@unclemark To promote their virtue signaling insanity. I watch many of the Real Housewives series. The one woman, all three of her children are gay and one is transitioning. Do you think that's a coincidence or do you think possibly that's being pushed? Of course it's being pushed. And believe me I know there are some not coming out because the environment no longer feels conducive. That's a shame but wait until they turn 18 AND KNOW so that they aren't doing it as a fad or because their loony lefty parents want to show just how woke they are.
P.S. Where's Real Housewives of Carmel?!
I'll tell ya! Never happening?!!!!! Because we're Republicans!
Then you should be in favor of requiring teachers to tell parents about a kid expressing trans identity:I think you have the burden of proof here to show the damage. Otherwise, the default rule should be to inform the parents.What potential damage might we do if we make it known to kids that these avenues of adult counsel are shut to them because their secrets will not remain secret?
I'd note you added a layer of complexity here that is not present in the lawsuit or the OP by changing the adult to a counselor, who has a better chance to be trained in dealing with these issues, from a teacher.
I'd also say, I can't imagine many parents going along with a system where the government could force a kid to spend all this time with government employees and then allow those government employees to hide crucial information from the parents about the child's emotional or spiritual well-being. Each such choice would obviously involve a value judgment by the state employee about the particular revelation in place of the parents'. For example, you used Judaism in your example. But let's say it was Satanism. Different teachers are going to react differently to that. Or, instead of homosexuality, let's say it was bestiality. What do you think a teacher would do there? Should do? Actually, the best example here might be abortion--do you believe a teacher should hide from a parent the fact that a child is pregnant, if the child asks that they not say anything so the child can get an abortion, because her parents probably wouldn't allow it? Are you really comfortable with the state making that complex, thorny moral judgment over the family?
(Because there are dishonest and stupid people here: No, I'm not saying I believe homosexuality=bestiality. I'm coming up with alternative sexual orientations that some--very few, in the case of bestiality, I'd guess--believe are harmless and some believe are abhorrent. If that's offensive to anyone, replace it with some sexual orientation or kink of your choice).
I'd say that anything a teacher or other trusted adult is told in confidence should remain in confidence, excepting concerns over self harm by the child or to others. That said, I also do not believe there should be any kind of school policy on such matters, one way or the other. The school system should have no rigid policy that each kid or adult gets shoehorned into following.
Data from The Trevor Project's 2024 national survey found that nearly half (46%) of transgender and nonbinary young people seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year.
Your take also leads to absurd results. Let's say a kid goes to a guidance counselor and says, "I think I'm gay" or "I think I want to convert to Judaism" but adds "but please don't tell my parents; I'm not ready to discuss this with them until I figure out how I feel." I'm guessing you'd agree that the counselor would be right to keep the kid's confidences despite what it might mean for the right of the parents to raise the kid "as they see fit." Correct?
I don't think that's absurd. You might not like it, but it's not absurd. The rape example is absurd and your rationale would support it.
But you would like it? Because if not, we are just arguing about the definition of the word "absurd," and I'm no CO.H, so that doesn't interest me.
@bradstevens Who are these people? Hahahaha. Mcmurt and Bloom. They are probably on Reddit!
I'd say that anything a teacher or other trusted adult is told in confidence should remain in confidence, excepting concerns over self harm by the child or to others. That said, I also do not believe there should be any kind of school policy on such matters, one way or the other. The school system should have no rigid policy that each kid or adult gets shoehorned into following.
Then you should be in favor of requiring teachers to tell parents about a kid expressing trans identity:
Data from The Trevor Project's 2024 national survey found that nearly half (46%) of transgender and nonbinary young people seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year.
Nice try. Kid says he thinks he might be trans. You narc on him because some survey says it's possible he might be suicidal, even though he has expressed no such sentiments to you. Sorry, that doesn't fly. It's just a back door to narc the kid out for questioning his sexuality.