I will only add that, respective to numbers, Obama had much lower hanging fruit b/c sanctuary cities didn't exsit (or were in their infancy at least early in his presidency). Local law enforcement shielding illegal immigrants criminal behavior from the feds is precisely why ICE is in the streets, along with the braggadocio horseshit from the Trump admin. And I don't remember liberals blocking feds with their cars back in 2010 either. That, as well, is a new developement. So now we've got a situation where there are just MORE interactions between lefty protestors/agitators and federal law enforcement. As @jdb noted, I would bet the total number of interactions is way higher today than it was 15 years ago. As to the woman shot in the face, while horrific, it's an outlier and statistically insignificant.
No, it's because (1) local law enforcement was cooperating with ICE to round people up; (2) ICE wasn't dealing with organized obstruction against it and highly publicized instances of violence towards them; and (3) there weren't a lot of politicians publically calling for people to obstruct ICE, "fight them," and calling them the Gestapo. Pretty big difference in context, isn't it?I think the point is that ICE's enforcing the immigration laws against non-violent criminals doesn't make it the Gestapo. ICE raids that produce what appear to be very bad results occur more than we'd like to admit, partly because it's the nature of what they do. Pinning it all on Trump makes little sense. And if you look at the overall numbers, Trump isn't close to Obama, while he's dealing with a much worse influx from his predecessor.
And yet, we have these anti-ICE people forming groups to do way more than protest and make their voice known, but in fact actively obstruct the enforcement of laws validly passed through the democratic process and some politicians egging them on.
I think some of these people--like the Milwaukee judge and I brought this up then--now treat and think of illegal aliens as runaway slaves. I had a buddy this weekend make precisely that analogy, and then when I pushed him on it, he thought he was being more reasonable by switching to "housing Jews" when they were being hunted. He called it the civil rights issue of our time. WTF?? How has the Overton Window among Democrats moved so close to open boarders and flat-out insurrection? I guess I could ask the same about MAGA, too, but we've covered that a lot before, and I'm more tied in with liberals and thought these people were smarter or more consistent than this.
I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but the criticisms flying around right now are about far more than just raw numbers. Which Obama agent shot a woman in the face in her car? I don't remember that happening. Is that because the liberal press hid it from me?
By the way, I wouldn't say the liberal media during Obama's time was "hiding" this stuff, they just didn't treat it as that big of news, the assumption being, yeah, law enforcement is going to end up doing some bad stuff--happens every single day and you can't cover it all.
I like Rogan and understand his concern. I think he's wrong to use that term and I'd like to discuss this in relation to Obama's record on it.I think the point is that ICE's enforcing the immigration laws against non-violent criminals doesn't make it the Gestapo. ICE raids that produce what appear to be very bad results occur more than we'd like to admit, partly because it's the nature of what they do. Pinning it all on Trump makes little sense. And if you look at the overall numbers, Trump isn't close to Obama, while he's dealing with a much worse influx from his predecessor.
And yet, we have these anti-ICE people forming groups to do way more than protest and make their voice known, but in fact actively obstruct the enforcement of laws validly passed through the democratic process and some politicians egging them on.
I think some of these people--like the Milwaukee judge and I brought this up then--now treat and think of illegal aliens as runaway slaves. I had a buddy this weekend make precisely that analogy, and then when I pushed him on it, he thought he was being more reasonable by switching to "housing Jews" when they were being hunted. He called it the civil rights issue of our time. WTF?? How has the Overton Window among Democrats moved so close to open boarders and flat-out insurrection? I guess I could ask the same about MAGA, too, but we've covered that a lot before, and I'm more tied in with liberals and thought these people were smarter or more consistent than this.
Joe Rogan criticizes ICE tactics: 'Are we really going to be the Gestapo?'
I agree the administration's propaganda is unwise. They deserve a lot of criticism for it. Illegal aliens should be deported, but I don't see the need to humiliate them. (Well, actually, that's not true, the humiliation does serve a purpose which is to incentive many more to self deport, which seems to be working. Still, I find it distasteful like you).@goat I don't remember any big-boobed cabinet member - - of DHS or any other agency - - posing in front of dozens of imprisoned, half-naked men, crowded together like animals in a bad zoo. And am not remembering hype videos like the video montage of ICE raids set to the theme song of Pokemon captioned "Got to catch them all." Or a Christmas-themed video using AI to depict Santa Claus as an ICE agent rounding up migrants for deportation. Or other DHS-produced/promoted videos of raids, including one titled "Operation Midway Blitz" in Chicago, using footage featuring Black Hawk helicopters.
This is propaganda shit, and makes light of serious, life-or-death situations. Of course there's going to be backlash.
Doesn't detract from the original points, though, I don't think.
People are most definitely complaining about Trump deporting people. Full stop. That's what those people in Minneapolis--including these women--are doing there, Goat. It's what all the people at Broadview were doing this summer. It's what Waltz is complaining about in his videos. They don't even want ICE there, no matter what methods they use.I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but the criticisms flying around right now are about far more than just raw numbers. Which Obama agent shot a woman in the face in her car? I don't remember that happening. Is that because the liberal press hid it from me?
Isn't that precisely the point? Libs have lost their minds and decided to protest because Trump is now ordering the same as Obama. I'd be open to listening to an argument that ICE has been directed to be more aggressive and physically violent than it was under Democratic administrations, but the burden of proof should be on those making that point.
This crazy lib moron wouldn't have been in the situation under Obama. Just like Babbit wouldn't have been at the Capitol on Jan 6th if Trump had won. Neither behavior should be excused and neither's death was a good thing. But, it was a comparable example of stupid people doing stupid things in tense situations with armed law enforcement.
You're missing the point. People aren't complaining because Trump is ordering the same as Obama - some on the left are, for sure, but keep following me - they are complaining because the officers are behaving in a way they never did under Obama, or anyone. Blame the woman all you want, there is no universe in which that woman dies in the Obama presidency. Regardless of how many people he deported. It's not just results; it's method. That's what people are upset about.
I agree that there are reasonable people who question the methods we are hearing about (many of which occurred during Obama's tenure with ICE, as evidenced by a few of the clips I provided). But as for how ICE agents would react during an Obama admin, do you honestly think they were trained that much better just a decade ago? I don't. I think it's the same type of people, doing the same type of job ,with very similar training, while carrying guns. You drive a car at them, after all the shit that's gone down over the last year, I'm sure an Obama era ICE agent might do the same thing.
By the way, that doesn't mean I think Good "deserved" to die, in some cosmic sense. What happened is a tragedy all the way around.
@bradstevens Rogan is the 🐐. Not because he’s incredibly smart. He’s not. But because he lets people talk. Gives them an opportunity to express their view no matter what it may be in a safe environment
There are two sides to this coin. One side is what Brad is pointing out. The other is that Obama was portrayed as a radical progressive while doing what Brad listed. I know radical progressives and said at the time they hated Obama. But the myth continued based frankly around his skin color.
A lot to that. Probably a tangential issue to this one, though? I wlll say this--some of the vids I posted show the radical left critiquing Obama and I never had any clue just how much traction they would get. Some of what they complain about, though, was and is worthy of investigation and reform. But at the end of the day, I think Obama was right--it is the job of the President to enforce the laws. He had to do what he did, and so does Trump.
I'm not sure how much I care about how Trump's administration motivates his people to do their jobs, as long as they do it and do it lawfully.
This situation (agents shooting at drivers and/or into moving cars) is a bad trend. And, to make matters worse, DHS and other federal officials are often flat-out lying about what happened.
ICE, Border Patrol shootings fit pattern in Minneapolis, Chicago, LA
But the myth continued based frankly around his skin color.
He was a very liberal voter as a Senator and then proceeded to push a heavily leftist agenda (DEI, ACA, etc.). Not everything is about race, Marv.
Warning of ICE actions is not observing and is wrong.
Many on the left disagree.
I'm not sure how much I care about how Trump's administration motivates his people to do their jobs, as long as they do it and do it lawfully.
I think some ways of motivation increases the odds that it will not be within the law. If we tell ICE that they are all that stands between "normal" Americans and certain death, they will behave differently. We will call this the Eastern Front of WW2 hypothesis. The Germans behaved bad in the west, but there is zero comparison to how they behaved in the East.
The more one believes they are the last hope, the more license they will take. Wouldn't you? If I think someone just wants my wallet, fine, have it. If I think that someone wants to kill my family, my reaction is different.
And yes, completely exonerating the agent without an investigation and flat-out refusing an investigation is an example of this. What message do you think that sends to people who might be in an area that may be "I shouldn't quite shoot yet" area?
Under Obama, the following report was issued. Do you really believe Trump's Administration is taking such a look? Look at the report.
I don't trust zealots. That includes people who are trying to warn that border patrol is coming. But that includes the belief that anything we do to capture an illegal is de facto legal. Have you seen a single sign that Trump and Bondi don't believe that? If you did, the DoJ would not have been ordered not to look into the shooting. I have no idea what may have been done wrong, but refusing to look into it is such zealotry.
So this is just one big But Obama!!! thread.
I can see that. I'm not sure I've heard the pep talks ICE agents are getting.I'm not sure how much I care about how Trump's administration motivates his people to do their jobs, as long as they do it and do it lawfully.
I think some ways of motivation increases the odds that it will not be within the law. If we tell ICE that they are all that stands between "normal" Americans and certain death, they will behave differently. We will call this the Eastern Front of WW2 hypothesis. The Germans behaved bad in the west, but there is zero comparison to how they behaved in the East.
The more one believes they are the last hope, the more license they will take. Wouldn't you? If I think someone just wants my wallet, fine, have it. If I think that someone wants to kill my family, my reaction is different.
And yes, completely exonerating the agent without an investigation and flat-out refusing an investigation is an example of this. What message do you think that sends to people who might be in an area that may be "I shouldn't quite shoot yet" area?
Under Obama, the following report was issued. Do you really believe Trump's Administration is taking such a look? Look at the report.
I don't trust zealots. That includes people who are trying to warn that border patrol is coming. But that includes the belief that anything we do to capture an illegal is de facto legal. Have you seen a single sign that Trump and Bondi don't believe that? If you did, the DoJ would not have been ordered not to look into the shooting. I have no idea what may have been done wrong, but refusing to look into it is such zealotry.
On the other side, do you think the rhetoric from guys like Walz is increasing the odds that these ICE watch groups will disobey the law? I think it's pretty clear that one tactic these people use is to incite/instigate incidents like this to create the very chaos they can then further rally against.
He was a very liberal voter as a Senator and then proceeded to push a heavily leftist agenda (DEI, ACA, etc.). Not everything is about race, Marv.
ACA was as moderate as a reform as was humanly possible. Medicare for all is fare left of that, as is going to the British system, the Canadian, the French, .... .
People on the left were very angry that he didn't push Congress to try to do far more on that, to eliminate private insurance. We need Rockfish around, he presented that case back then. Go meet some progressives and discuss how much you love the ACA. You'll find out they want far more. You will hear it is nothing more than a way to ensure profits for the monied interests in insurance.
Obama refused to use his popularity to try to do any such thing, and it angered many further left. There is a GIANT gulf between Warren/Sanders/Mamdani and Obama.
https://progressive.org/op-eds/barack-obama-not-my-hero-pitchford-201214/
The "burn the system to the ground" populists won the GOP over, the liberal version hasn't gained that much power. If Obama had it, we would have at least Medicare for all and not ACA. Believe me, we won't have ACA after President AOC gets done.
do you think the rhetoric from guys like Walz is increasing the odds that these ICE watch groups will disobey the law?
Yes.
Nice superficial analysis. Better move on to the "Trump bad man" thread.So this is just one big But Obama!!! thread.