I'm just exploring this issue and am uncertain about it, so some questions:Why?I think ethnic cleansing is intrinsically immoral,
Because it, by definition, requires the theft of land from rightful owners, and even worse, does so based on ethnic identity, which is an immutable characteristic, and shouldn't be used as the basis for discrimination.
Is it immoral if in the end it saves lives and is a net benefit under a utilitarian calculus?
Is eminent domain immoral?
I'm not a utilitarian, but I admit that choice comes with some reluctance, so I have to admit I am sensitive to your first question, while eventually landing on, "It doesn't matter."
Eminent domain may be immoral depending on how it is used. I think the default position should be immoral, and someone defending its use should have a heavy burden justifying it.
Remember when the killer Bees were coming to the US. Whatever happened with all that.
Well, Killer Bibi's next stop is to meet Trump so they can plan where the Trump resort will be placed after he gets approved to buy 6 Billion in weapons.
But First he had the threaten the world in the UN.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/netanyahu-set-contentious-speech-united-091126216.html
The Israelis might as well finish them off, permanently at this point. Which has always been my stance. Ethnically cleanse them out of Gaza and the West Bank and get it over with. Eventually most of the world would forget. Frankly better to be a pariah for awhile then to have that festering wound blowing up every 10 years.
Modern warfare is dumb. We prefer perma-conflicts that never resolve as long as they are "low intensity". Much better to have a quick, high intensity war that resolves the issue. The Palestinians are never getting a country. N-e-v-e-r never. We should have allowed Israel to wipe them out of the country decades ago and they could have moved on with better lives. Instead we get to build and blow them up every decade. It is stupid.
I appreciate that you are at least open and honest about it.
I think it is more cruel in the short run while more humanitarian in the long. Those people would all be living better lives now if the situation was resolved 30 or 40 years ago and they were living in a neighboring country (namely Egypt and Jordan) instead.
It was like the Germans getting run out of Eastern Europe after WW2. It sucked for those people in the moment but better that then 60 to 70 years of not getting along with the dominant group in your area with an axe to grind.
And I think ethnic cleansing is intrinsically immoral, but I understand your point of view. As I said, kudos for being open. My only eye-rolls are directed at the people who won't own up to what it is that they are supporting.
I mean, killing people is kind of intrinsically immoral too, no? I don't think there is any scenario where these people are going to live peacefully next to each other. So (IMO) you have two choices: remove the weaker populace or accept that the weaker populace will continue to be dominated and subject to unproportional violence on the frequent occasions that this goes hot.
If I were facing the choice in some bizzaro world of moving from Indiana to Canada to avoid being bombed every few years by the flying purple people eaters, I would go to Canada. That's just me.
I think Farva thinks that Palestinian society doesn't honor property rights as much as Western socieities do. Should we apply their standard to them or ours?@goat I’m still far more serious than Palestinian property rights.
@bradstevens case in point. Farva doesn't think particular rights should extend to people who belong to a particular ethnic group. I find that problematic, and these kinds of problematic discriminations are inherently part of ethnic cleansing.
It doesn't matter what standards you apply. If you want to remove all the Palestinians from Palestine, you will need to infringe upon private property rights. That's unavoidable. Trying to cloud it up in discussions of which property system should be applied is deflection. Whatever system you want to come up with. Apply Nepalese property law for all I care. It's still true that ethnic cleansing will require infringing on those rights.
Remember when the killer Bees were coming to the US. Whatever happened with all that.
Well, Killer Bibi's next stop is to meet Trump so they can plan where the Trump resort will be placed after he gets approved to buy 6 Billion in weapons.
But First he had the threaten the world in the UN.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/netanyahu-set-contentious-speech-united-091126216.html
The Israelis might as well finish them off, permanently at this point. Which has always been my stance. Ethnically cleanse them out of Gaza and the West Bank and get it over with. Eventually most of the world would forget. Frankly better to be a pariah for awhile then to have that festering wound blowing up every 10 years.
Modern warfare is dumb. We prefer perma-conflicts that never resolve as long as they are "low intensity". Much better to have a quick, high intensity war that resolves the issue. The Palestinians are never getting a country. N-e-v-e-r never. We should have allowed Israel to wipe them out of the country decades ago and they could have moved on with better lives. Instead we get to build and blow them up every decade. It is stupid.
I appreciate that you are at least open and honest about it.
I think it is more cruel in the short run while more humanitarian in the long. Those people would all be living better lives now if the situation was resolved 30 or 40 years ago and they were living in a neighboring country (namely Egypt and Jordan) instead.
It was like the Germans getting run out of Eastern Europe after WW2. It sucked for those people in the moment but better that then 60 to 70 years of not getting along with the dominant group in your area with an axe to grind.
And I think ethnic cleansing is intrinsically immoral, but I understand your point of view. As I said, kudos for being open. My only eye-rolls are directed at the people who won't own up to what it is that they are supporting.
I mean, killing people is kind of intrinsically immoral too, no? I don't think there is any scenario where these people are going to live peacefully next to each other. So (IMO) you have two choices: remove the weaker populace or accept that the weaker populace will continue to be dominated and subject to unproportional violence on the frequent occasions that this goes hot.
If I were facing the choice in some bizzaro world of moving from Indiana to Canada to avoid being bombed every few years by the flying purple people eaters, I would go to Canada. That's just me.
Killing is immoral. And leaving a bad situation may lead to a better situation. How does any of that bear on the morality of ethnic cleansing?
If I were facing the choice in some bizzaro world of moving from Indiana to Canada to avoid being bombed every few years by the flying purple people eaters, I would go to Canada. That’s just me.
You presume Palestinians have a choice. Their terrible historical behavior and its massive problems for other nations during immigration (Egypt, Jordan, etc.) is part of the reason that they have nowhere to go. No Arab countries want them.
@goat the “property”you speak of is a demolished apartment complex that would need to be rebuilt with foreign money. The people that do “own” property are gangs members at best, jihadists at worst.
It does matter the standard property rights standard you apply, poor standards are not to be acknowledged.
@goat the “property”you speak of is a demolished apartment complex that would need to be rebuilt with foreign money. The people that do “own” property are gangs members at best, jihadists at worst.
It does matter the standard property rights standard you apply, poor standards are not to be acknowledged.
I don't care how run down the building is. If you want to forcibly evict someone from their land, you have to steal it from them. Pick whatever property system you want, it's still theft.
@dbmhoosier everyone thinks it’s about that high including Israel and they run Palestine’s census. Is the population data in dispute?
Citation?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war
Huh, that’s normal, right?
Huh, that’s normal, right?
Sorry, but the image in your link immediately reminded me of 1970's bumper stickers...
A good friend will bail you out of jail, but your best friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying "that was f***ing awesome"
Too early to tell if it's a "religion of peace" event?
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cx2703lnww4t
A good friend will bail you out of jail, but your best friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying "that was f***ing awesome"
The people that do “own” property are gangs members at best, jihadists at worst.
Are you including the ~20,000 healthcare workers in Gaza at the start of the war, which includes doctors, nurses, and other highly educated medical professionals? They were all dirty jihadist gangsters?
"You can't make someone listen to reason if they aren't willing to think"-- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451
