I don't see littlebitchbadger really in the business of eternal damnation with this thread, but maybe I'm off. Some others here who call themselves Christian are into that sort of thing, but I'm not sure what good it does arguing with them.and in defense of @jdb and myself, I think the utility of these discussions is to try and make people think and counter in some small way the cultural status quo that encourages people (even if sincere and well meaning) to implicitly or explicitly tell people that they’re inherently evil and deserve infinite punishment for finite actions that they may or may not have committed.
and I don’t know who needs to hear this, but you are NOT inherently unworthy/evil/bad. Do your best to be good to people and act in a pro-social manner. The less anti-social behavior in a social species there is mean the better for the whole community.
I'd note, though, that Christianity is kinds built on the notion of forgiveness and salvation no matter the finite actions of a person. I'm conflicted on that--I think if you rape, torture, and murder a child, and if there were an afterlife, you should have a worse one than an atheist who does good in the world. But Christians think if the rapist child torturer repents and really believes, they live in eternal paradise. (Note, I think people say that to try to be consistent with the Bible, but I don't believe many actually believe it at all).
I think you bring up a good point that, if this life dictates our just desserts in the next, it feels like our actions in this life should weigh more heavily than our religious inclinations. However, I'd also add a corollary to that, since someone (I think it was littlebitchboomersooner) mentioned that any finite suffering in this life is obviously overcome by infinite bliss in an eternal afterlife. I think that's a valid point, but it also necessarily requires finite sin in this world to be overcome by infinite mercy in the next, so that we end up with universal salvation, which I doubt most of the people defending God on the issue of evil would be willing to countenance.
Hay @littlebitchbuckeye here's a crazy one for you, diagnose me. My sabbath observance is this: I refuse to shave or trim my facial hair between sundown Saturday and sunrise Monday. No matter what I am doing or what I have planned, that's a rule I've followed for the past 25 years. I'm not entirely sure why I do it, but my face feels like sandpaper tonight, and I picked up my electric razor, realized what day it was, and put it back down. Figure me out.
Hay @littlebitchbuckeye here's a crazy one for you, diagnose me. My sabbath observance is this: I refuse to shave or trim my facial hair between sundown Saturday and sunrise Monday. No matter what I am doing or what I have planned, that's a rule I've followed for the past 25 years. I'm not entirely sure why I do it, but my face feels like sandpaper tonight, and I picked up my electric razor, realized what day it was, and put it back down. Figure me out.
Not @lbb, but I'd say you're practicing for when you're independently wealthy and DGAF.
God will use our suffering for his glory, though
So you agree he’s an asshole?
God Is An Asshole (tm) is my theology in a nutshell. It explains everything.
I think it's possible God is just an amateur and our universe is his master's thesis. He'll do better next time.
I encourage you to talk to our Father and to demonstrate your gratitude and faithfulness to him by living according to his will, or at least try.
After all, if our Father can love and help a detestable, lowlife, degenerate, sinner and recovering alcoholic like me then he’ll undoubtedly love and help others.
Nothing worse than a drunk who's gotten Jesus and now has all the answers.
I encourage you to talk to our Father and to demonstrate your gratitude and faithfulness to him by living according to his will, or at least try.
After all, if our Father can love and help a detestable, lowlife, degenerate, sinner and recovering alcoholic like me then he’ll undoubtedly love and help others.
Nothing worse than a drunk who's gotten Jesus and now has all the answers.
HAY! You're describing all of my Xmas sermons.
Let’s drill in on this. What is the plan?
It's God's plan, not mine. I don't pretend to know or understand everything about our Father or his plan. We know that some infants suffer and my belief is that our Father allows it for a purpose that is beyond our ability to comprehend. Again, I put my hope, faith, and trust into our Heavenly Father. Do you?
Causing him to doubt will bring about little good in the world
Thank you my brother. I'm certainly willing to modify my doctrinal understanding. After all, anyone seeking to persuade others must also be willing to themselves be persuaded. That's what honest, selfless, discussion entails. Those who seek to "win" an argument are driven by ego rather than a sincere search for truth. The ego blinds such people.
As for my belief and faith in our Heavenly Father, there is NOTHING that can weaken it!
Some are not yet ready to follow Jesus. NOBODY can follow Jesus unless and until our Father permits them to do so.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 11:25
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65
65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father".
However, unlike many Christians, I am rock-solid in my belief that ALL who ever existed will, eventually, be welcomed into our Father's Kingdom, but that's probably another thread and it's a thread that many of my Christian brothers will dislike and which may compel them to brandish me a heretic.
Romans 8:37-39
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
...and deserve infinite punishment...
Most of Christianity believes that doctrine, but not me. In another thread I will share scriptures and other information to counter it.
I’d note, though, that Christianity is kinds built on the notion of forgiveness and salvation no matter the finite actions of a person. I’m conflicted on that–I think if you rape, torture, and murder a child, and if there were an afterlife, you should have a worse one than an atheist who does good in the world. But Christians think if the rapist child torturer repents and really believes, they live in eternal paradise. (Note, I think people say that to try to be consistent with the Bible, but I don’t believe many actually believe it at all).
Only Jesus can and will judge us. We don't know why some people rape and murder, but Jesus does. We need to focus on ourselves by repenting (changing) from sin, loving our Father, doing his will, and loving one another. I'll again share the following verses, which I believe to be the summarization of Christianity which, by the way, don't require a doctorate in theology to understand.
Matthew 7:21
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
John 14:15
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Matthew 22:36-40
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Galatians 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
immoral: whatever doesn’t comport with one’s moral framework.
I believe "immoral" is anything that contradicts God's will.
I do find it funny that we have people here who think they are equipped to solve the Problem of Evil, as though more than two millennia of philosophers and theologians were just amateurs until Random Hoosier Fan With Internet Access came along and saved the day.
1 Corinthians 1:27
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
so that we end up with universal salvation
Jesus's mission is, I believe, to unite ALL THINGS to himself and then to give the UNITED KINGDOM to the Father which will culminate the ages.
Ephesians 1:7-10
