@bigmike Yeah... I think when Dorn is fully healthy, and Harris is fully healthy... I should say when and if they get fully healthy... then our rotation gets a fair bit better with things like this. Though, I will say, Enright might be a better rebounder than Dorn has ever shown himself to be. But from an overall length standpoint, and then offensively, I think Dorn ends up being a NET positive, over Enright. But there's no doubt, we're gonna need Connerway, Wilkerson, and DeVries to help out on the boards. Seems like they will. But there will be some teams we play that we just don't have the size, and we'll have to outshoot them to win. Which is fine, that is a measurable strength just like being big and rebounding is.
Dorn's not that great. He's just another guy....maybe a little better than Enright, Bailey & Miles.
We basically have 5 guys who can play....DeVries, Wilkerson, Alexis, Sisley, and Conerway. I'm not crazy about Conerway's game but at least he's a tough guy. Everybody else is just depth with the possible exceptions of Ristic & Harris.
@mushroomgod I am right there with you. Had hope for Dorn, but he does not look like a player at this point. We have 5 guys. Play those 5 as much as possible.
@cavanagh you guys are unbelievable. Dorn's returning from a months long injury. It often takes guys time to acclimate, and trust the injured body part. He may not pan out, but it's way to early to declare he can't contribute.
Bailey's always had limitations and they were known before he came to IU. He won't be a + defender or rebounder, but I think is here for his offense. Can make the occasional open jumper but very good passing and handling the ball. He's going to contribute in spurts.
@cavanagh you guys are unbelievable. Dorn's returning from a months long injury. It often takes guys time to acclimate, and trust the injured body part. He may not pan out, but it's way to early to declare he can't contribute.
Bailey's always had limitations and they were known before he came to IU. He won't be a + defender or rebounder, but I think is here for his offense. Can make the occasional open jumper but very good passing and handling the ball. He's going to contribute in spurts.
I never said that neither Shipley nor Dorn would contribute. I don't think either of them is good enough to be the 6th player on a good BT team.
A lot of people thought Baily would be pretty good. He was rated #63 in the 247 portal rankings. Guys around him in the ratings can play some--Elliott Cadeau of UNC/Michigan was #60, Tre Donaldson was 61. Mgbako was 65. Nick Boyd of Wisconsin was 72. I think Shipley got a lot of $$ from us. We overpaid for a very mediocre player at the BT level. And it was a pretty critical miss, given our shortage of bigs.
For more comparison, Wilkerson was #45 in the portal, Shipley #63. Shipley shouldn't have been in the same area code as Wilkerson.
247 had Dorn at #102; Conerway at #105: and Miles at #113.
A few people on here have over-hyped Dorn. He can score.....some. 18.1 points for every 40M played, at Elon, the #9 team in a 14 team league. The two best teams in that conference last year were Towson & UNC Wilmington. But he's not particularly efficient as a scorer. He shot .355 over 2 years on 3s, .449 on 2s. He shot .786 on FTs, but only had 4.3 attempts per game. He shot twice as many 3s as 2s, and it doesn't appear he is a slasher, given his % on 2s and the # of FT attempts he got. He's not a physical player, as he only averaged 5.2 rebounds per every 40M---not many considering he's 6'7" and playing against CAA players. And he's not much of a passer...1.0 assists every 40M v. 1.5 TOs. So basically you have a guy who is an above-average shooter, not very physical, not much of a passer. About what you would expect from the 102nd player in the portal.
Devries got more than his $$s worth on Wilkerson, Conerway, and Alexis, but overpaid on Bailey.
I want to see what Ristic (sp?) & Harris can do. If they can squeeze time from Bailey and Dorn our ceiling will be higher.
@cavanagh you guys are unbelievable. Dorn's returning from a months long injury. It often takes guys time to acclimate, and trust the injured body part. He may not pan out, but it's way to early to declare he can't contribute.
Bailey's always had limitations and they were known before he came to IU. He won't be a + defender or rebounder, but I think is here for his offense. Can make the occasional open jumper but very good passing and handling the ball. He's going to contribute in spurts.
I never said that neither Shipley nor Dorn would contribute. I don't think either of them is good enough to be the 6th player on a good BT team.
A lot of people thought Baily would be pretty good. He was rated #63 in the 247 portal rankings. Guys around him in the ratings can play some--Elliott Cadeau of UNC/Michigan was #60, Tre Donaldson was 61. Mgbako was 65. Nick Boyd of Wisconsin was 72. I think Shipley got a lot of $$ from us. We overpaid for a very mediocre player at the BT level. And it was a pretty critical miss, given our shortage of bigs.
For more comparison, Wilkerson was #45 in the portal, Shipley #63. Shipley shouldn't have been in the same area code as Wilkerson.
247 had Dorn at #102; Conerway at #105: and Miles at #113.
A few people on here have over-hyped Dorn. He can score.....some. 18.1 points for every 40M played, at Elon, the #9 team in a 14 team league. The two best teams in that conference last year were Towson & UNC Wilmington. But he's not particularly efficient as a scorer. He shot .355 over 2 years on 3s, .449 on 2s. He shot .786 on FTs, but only had 4.3 attempts per game. He shot twice as many 3s as 2s, and it doesn't appear he is a slasher, given his % on 2s and the # of FT attempts he got. He's not a physical player, as he only averaged 5.2 rebounds per every 40M---not many considering he's 6'7" and playing against CAA players. And he's not much of a passer...1.0 assists every 40M v. 1.5 TOs. So basically you have a guy who is an above-average shooter, not very physical, not much of a passer. About what you would expect from the 102nd player in the portal.
Devries got more than his $$s worth on Wilkerson, Conerway, and Alexis, but overpaid on Bailey.
I want to see what Ristic (sp?) & Harris can do. If they can squeeze time from Bailey and Dorn our ceiling will be higher.
@scam-likely would help if we weren't asking Bailey to be the player he's not and has never been: post defender and rebounder. Agree with IUNorth's comments in another thread: Bailey becomes much better playing him alongside someone who can protect the paint. Right now that's difficult because we have no post depth and Bailey and Alexsis have shown a propensity to foul.
@cavanagh I think a more accurate assessment is CDD missed not ALSO bringing in someone like the Hansberry kid he had at WVU...he didn't "miss" on Bailey. He just doesn't have a banger. Even Alexis isn't that guy. And Bailey for sure isn't. But to be fair to Bailey, he never has been. I think if Bailey were 6-8, we'd see him as a very good passing wing, solid ball handler for his size, a valuable player for how CDD wants to play. The fact that he's 6-10, naturally makes us want him to be something he's not. We'll see a lot of games this year where Alexis closes the game out. And I bet when Harris gets healthy, and up to speed, we'll situationally see more times with Bailey on the floor with another "big". Bailey will be a valuable weapon, offensively, against the teams in our conference that utilize multiple bigs. His ability to handle and pass will bring guys like Cluff, Peterson, Mara, Luxemborg, etc... away from the basket more. The obvious problem will be the other end. Gonna have to team rebound, and pressure the hell out of the ball on defense. And get A LOT better with our rotations.
Give it up on Bailey. He is horrible. He was a miss. If he was 6'8" he'd lose his only redeeming quality...his height.
I'll add a caveat to my dissing of Bailey.....I think he can be effective on occasion v. bad teams. He is tall, is fast up and down the Court, can dribble and pass, can shoot FTs, and does try. None of that will translate against bigger, faster teams.
I remember after we recruited him that an analyst (can't recall who) described his build and his game and said that players with those characteristics from schools like Davidson 'fail' 80-85% of the time at the P5 level. It would be an entirely different matter if he was a legit 3 point threat.....but he's not. When I saw that he averaged 1 3 point attempt/game at Davidson I knew we had overpaid.
^^^^^^This.
you're dead balls accurate. He's a miss. Plain and simple. He's too weak. After watching those games last night .., Sparty will pound him into uselessness. Start Trent. He is already better than Bailey.
@scam-likely would help if we weren't asking Bailey to be the player he's not and has never been: post defender and rebounder. Agree with IUNorth's comments in another thread: Bailey becomes much better playing him alongside someone who can protect the paint. Right now that's difficult because we have no post depth and Bailey and Alexsis have shown a propensity to foul.
Depth issues due to foul trouble will be pronounced in conference play, especially on the road.
@kkott Call it whatever you would like but coach swung and missed on Bailey. Giving him a million plus was insanity. He is gonna get crushed in the B1G. More we see of Trent the better. Just play our top 5 as much as possible, that is the way we will win. Trent Alexis, Connerway and the two studs.
@kkott Call it whatever you would like but coach swung and missed on Bailey. Giving him a million plus was insanity. He is gonna get crushed in the B1G. More we see of Trent the better. Just play our top 5 as much as possible, that is the way we will win. Trent Alexis, Connerway and the two studs.
Yo Cav..
Bailey doesn't look good but he's also leading the team in every offensive and defensuve efficiency metric plus per 40 scoring.
Surprised me that he's been very efficient and productive with his time and not quite as horrible as the narrative.
IU hasn't had to double the post yet nor have they played against a stud post rotation so it's still too early to call him a bust or a success.
Time will tell ..
@hoosiers94 You and Cav are ridiculous. He was first team All Conference in the A10 last year. He is a really good FORWARD. Bailey and Alexis are different types of players. And for sure, an argument could be made that we should start Trent and Alexis, and have Bailey come off the bench. I don't hate that approach, at all... But just stop with your hyperbole BS dragging one of our better players down as far as you are. You're both showing how shallow your depth of knowledge on the game of basketball is.
Bailey's numbers... 18.8 MPG, 11.8 ppg, 4rpg, 2.5apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5bpg, 71.4 overall FG%, 84.2 FT %, 100% 3p %
Alexis's numbers... 21.0 MPG, 12.3 ppg, 6.3rpg, 1.5apg, 0.0spg, 1.0bpg, 72.7 overall FG%, 84.2 FT %, 50% 3p %
Sisley's numbers... 20.5 MPG, 8.3 ppg, 4 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.0 spg, 0.3bpg, 53.8 overall FG%, no free throw attempts, 45.5 3p %
Basically the exact same per minute production for Alexis and Bailey. Alexis can do some more things than Bailey can do, that a traditional big needs to do. Bailey can do some more things than Alexis can do, that a more perimeter oriented forward needs to do.
They're both valuable tall people on our roster. Sisley isn't as efficient, or productive, as either one of them...for what its worth. And he isn't even close to as good a perimeter defender as Bailey is.
@hoosiers94 You and Cav are ridiculous. He was first team All Conference in the A10 last year. He is a really good FORWARD. Bailey and Alexis are different types of players. And for sure, an argument could be made that we should start Trent and Alexis, and have Bailey come off the bench. I don't hate that approach, at all... But just stop with your hyperbole BS dragging one of our better players down as far as you are. You're both showing how shallow your depth of knowledge on the game of basketball is.
Bailey's numbers... 18.8 MPG, 11.8 ppg, 4rpg, 2.5apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5bpg, 71.4 overall FG%, 84.2 FT %, 100% 3p %
Alexis's numbers... 21.0 MPG, 12.3 ppg, 6.3rpg, 1.5apg, 0.0spg, 1.0bpg, 72.7 overall FG%, 84.2 FT %, 50% 3p %
Sisley's numbers... 20.5 MPG, 8.3 ppg, 4 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.0 spg, 0.3bpg, 53.8 overall FG%, no free throw attempts, 45.5 3p %
Basically the exact same per minute production for Alexis and Bailey. Alexis can do some more things than Bailey can do, that a traditional big needs to do. Bailey can do some more things than Alexis can do, that a more perimeter oriented forward needs to do.
They're both valuable tall people on our roster. Sisley isn't as efficient, or productive, as either one of them...for what its worth. And he isn't even close to as good a perimeter defender as Bailey is.
Like I said above Bailey leads the team in points per possession, defensive points per possession, box plus minus, off and def box plus minus, win shares per 40 and per 40 scoring.
I only scanned them so mistakes are possible but it doesn't fit the hes awful narrative.
I dont believe it will hold but he's not been unproductive or inefficient and the team has been better with him on the floor.
Too early to make any solid judgements
@scam-likely I think its obvious that he's a good overall ball player. Doesn't surprise me, at all, that he's been leading our efficiency numbers. Its also evident that he isn't any sort of traditional big. He does get pushed around on rebounds, he isn't great at finishing through contact at the rim. He isn't going to lock down high level bigs, defensively in the post, in the B10, nor is he going to finish through them on the offensive end. And evidently, CDD saw something last game that he didn't like, playing him only 13 minutes or so, to Alexis upper 20's. But he's 6-10, he's a good ball handler, he's a very good passer, he's a solid shooter, he draws fouls and makes free throws, he's bouncy and because he's 6-10 and bouncy, he's a good lob threat, and then he's actually one of our better perimeter defenders, on and off the ball.
And he wanted to come to IU. I'm glad to have him. In the big scheme of things, there are A LOT worse million dollar players across the country. And despite him not being a traditional big, we still need and benefit, from his size and length.
@cavanagh I won't call Bailey a miss, if we're playing him out of position. I think he would be very valuable alongside someone who can defend the post and be a paint protector/primary rebounder. Asking him to do that is a big part of the problem. I think we'd be better off starting Alexsis and whoever they have more confidence in: Sisley or Dorn... probably Sisley now and still let Dorn recover. Bailey as a primary post backup and Enright for Connerway. Hope Harris and Ristic get healthy. I liked what I saw of Ristic in PR and thought he looked better than I expected.
@iunorth I'm anxious to get Harris back to have at least a little extra depth up front. I really think playing Bailey alongside Alexsis would make him more valuable by not having him guarding the other teams primary post guy and allow Alexsis to be our main rebounding guy. I felt like Bailey had 2 hands on at least 4 rebounds/loose balls vs IW or Milwaukee (forget which one) and still lost the ball. Not Bailey's fault we didn't get someone to be an interior presence on D.