@gros-louis at least you have all your articles and links ready to go to send to the NCAA!
It's interesting to me that they can point out specific rules/laws that don't allow them to overturn the result of the game, but where oh where are these protocols that were supposedly not followed? And if the protocols were already in place, why the memo sent out on Sept 8th with guidance on how to deal with this issue going forward?@gros-louis at least you have all your articles and links ready to go to send to the NCAA!
Further, it's been proven there was time left on the stadium clock, but choosing to ignore that and go with TV instead is certainly a decision on par with just about every other decision the NCAA makes.
The committee confirmed that it does not have the authority to overturn the contest. The playing rules governing the result of a contest are clear. Once the referee declares a contest to be final, no appeal of the outcome is permitted, according to Rules 1-1-3-b and 5-2-9 of the NCAA football rules:
- Rule 1-1-3-b: When the referee declares that the game is ended, the score is final.
- Rule 5-2-9: No rule decision may be changed after the ball is next legally snapped, legally free-kicked or the second or fourth periods have ended.
The committee consulted with national officiating leadership regarding the instant replay protocols. Based on that information, the committee agreed that the instant replay protocols were not followed in the contest’s second-to-last play. Had the protocols been followed, the outcome of the game would have been different.
On Sept. 8, Matt Young, the NCAA secretary rules-editor for football, issued an interpretation on official game timing protocols to reinforce the proper procedures governing the end of either half.
When a replay review requires time to be restored or otherwise adjusted, the replay official’s decision will be based on the embedded game clock contained within the program feed. If the broadcaster is unable to provide an embedded game clock, the replay official will use the game-clock graphic displayed as part of the broadcast feed.
This will be the Division I FBS Oversight Committee’s only statement on this matter.
@gros-louis I would assume it's the instructions to referees themselves on how to interpret the rules and execute/enact a review. That's protocol, and that's what's always mattered to me. You seem to only care if there actually was time on the clock. I've said all along, I don't care if there was, follow the same procedure you've been instructed to follow and that everyone follows. If the Hawkeye, or any system is better, I'm all for it if the rules specify using it, but don't do something different, out of "sight" of the public, just because the games in Ann Arbor.
I saw a screenshot from the OU-Michigan game last week which showed another :01 discrepancy between the scorebug clock and the stadium clock. Entirely different network. It's interesting to me that we have a ton of examples of this happening already this year. Presumably it's been an issue for a long time, but not one that has had light shone on it like this. I think the protocol should be for the networks to get their shit together.@gros-louis I would assume it's the instructions to referees themselves on how to interpret the rules and execute/enact a review. That's protocol, and that's what's always mattered to me. You seem to only care if there actually was time on the clock. I've said all along, I don't care if there was, follow the same procedure you've been instructed to follow and that everyone follows. If the Hawkeye, or any system is better, I'm all for it if the rules specify using it, but don't do something different, out of "sight" of the public, just because the games in Ann Arbor.
@gros-louis ... Okay, I've read all of your posts on this subject and I'm now ready to tell you you're full of it and have ZERO knowledge of what exactly happened.
As I've written on here many times, I spent over 30 years working as a live sports Producer or AP for just about every national sports network in existence. I'm still very close to and in contact with current production staff people, ranging from Network Coordinating Producers and Independent Producers & Directors and APs to camerman operators and runners.... Most all are the guys responsible (note - RESPONSIBLE) for the overall production from making sure the engineers have the stadium clocks sync'd to the truck to the guys calling what shots we see.
Now... Last week I spent about an hour on the phone talking to two of my former colleagues who both were key figures in the W. Mich / Michigan broadcast... both are as high up in the food chain as you can get and they both filled me in on the clock situation...
First, what we saw on screen when the play happened was the EXACT time on the stadium scoreboard. All clocks were perfectly in sync as performed by the engineers prior to the game.....
Your claim that the clock wasn't sync'd is ridiculous and every person associated with NBC and the University of Michigan will agree...
As for your post last week that included the video clip of the supposed "NBC Replay Guy" showing all of the fans a clock with :01 .... That is complete total BS....
Actually, per my sources, that so-called person was not even a part of the NBC crew... he might have been taping things for the Michigan team and had a clock coming from another feed but since it was definitely not getting it's feed directly from NBCs clock sync.... it's unlikely this guy had anything to do with the broadcast... We do know that every team, college and pro, has their own camera's set up for their game studies... that's a more likely answer to who this guy was... As I a side, over the years I hired a couple of guys who worked as camera operators for their colleges football team so I'm familiar with camera placement....
In addition, any NBC cameraman who wasn't directly part of the replay team would NOT have access to the replay feed... OR, have the ability to replay directly from his camera.... their own shot and the Program feed is all they'd have access to... Plus, there's no way he would he be allowed to have a group of fans standing literally right beside him. Any cameraperson knows that would be the LAST game they'd ever work if they were that busy chumming with fans instead of listening for what the Director wants his next shot to be.
Finally,... The crew had their usual after game gathering and... TO-THE-MAN ... announcers included.... no one could figure out how or why the ref decided to use video from a Non-NBC camera that was not-sync'd camera to make his decision... The news that came out today directly from the NCAA saying proper protocol was not followed supports this..... Also, at the time of the call the Ref WAS informed that that was not the proper video for the replay.
While nothing has ever been announced as to how it happened, the theory is that someone from the B1G or the U. of Michigan intervened on the sidelines and told him to look at the incorrect, un-syn'd clock replay. The ref didn't listen to the truck telling him it was not part of their feed or part of protocol they're both required to follow.
To end, Gros-Louis... you did not have access to any factual information so please stop claiming that's what happened.
@gros-louis ... Okay, I've read all of your posts on this subject and I'm now ready to tell you you're full of it and have ZERO knowledge of what exactly happened.
As I've written on here many times, I spent over 30 years working as a live sports Producer or AP for just about every national sports network in existence. I'm still very close to and in contact with current production staff people, ranging from Network Coordinating Producers and Independent Producers & Directors and APs to camerman operators and runners.... Most all are the guys responsible (note - RESPONSIBLE) for the overall production from making sure the engineers have the stadium clocks sync'd to the truck to the guys calling what shots we see.
Now... Last week I spent about an hour on the phone talking to two of my former colleagues who both were key figures in the W. Mich / Michigan broadcast... both are as high up in the food chain as you can get and they both filled me in on the clock situation...
First, what we saw on screen when the play happened was the EXACT time on the stadium scoreboard. All clocks were perfectly in sync as performed by the engineers prior to the game.....
Your claim that the clock wasn't sync'd is ridiculous and every person associated with NBC and the University of Michigan will agree...
As for your post last week that included the video clip of the supposed "NBC Replay Guy" showing all of the fans a clock with :01 .... That is complete total BS....
Actually, per my sources, that so-called person was not even a part of the NBC crew... he might have been taping things for the Michigan team and had a clock coming from another feed but since it was definitely not getting it's feed directly from NBCs clock sync.... it's unlikely this guy had anything to do with the broadcast... We do know that every team, college and pro, has their own camera's set up for their game studies... that's a more likely answer to who this guy was... As I a side, over the years I hired a couple of guys who worked as camera operators for their colleges football team so I'm familiar with camera placement....
In addition, any NBC cameraman who wasn't directly part of the replay team would NOT have access to the replay feed... OR, have the ability to replay directly from his camera.... their own shot and the Program feed is all they'd have access to... Plus, there's no way he would he be allowed to have a group of fans standing literally right beside him. Any cameraperson knows that would be the LAST game they'd ever work if they were that busy chumming with fans instead of listening for what the Director wants his next shot to be.
Finally,... The crew had their usual after game gathering and... TO-THE-MAN ... announcers included.... no one could figure out how or why the ref decided to use video from a Non-NBC camera that was not-sync'd camera to make his decision... The news that came out today directly from the NCAA saying proper protocol was not followed supports this..... Also, at the time of the call the Ref WAS informed that that was not the proper video for the replay.
While nothing has ever been announced as to how it happened, the theory is that someone from the B1G or the U. of Michigan intervened on the sidelines and told him to look at the incorrect, un-syn'd clock replay. The ref didn't listen to the truck telling him it was not part of their feed or part of protocol they're both required to follow.
To end, Gros-Louis... you did not have access to any factual information so please stop claiming that's what happened.
in summary......like we already knew
Western Michigan got fvcked
@drjb ... Yep, and those are the exact words one of the announcers used after the game when talking to one of the crew.
@drjb ... Yep, and those are the exact words one of the announcers used after the game when talking to one of the crew.
i would hope like hell that when it comes down to picking teams for playoffs and bowl games they count that game a win for wm and a loss for um
U of M showed resiliency!
You might wanna throw around "30 year of such and such and by golly I still know people" but you literally have no clue what you're talking about in this instance.@gros-louis ... Okay, I've read all of your posts on this subject and I'm now ready to tell you you're full of it and have ZERO knowledge of what exactly happened.
As I've written on here many times, I spent over 30 years working as a live sports Producer or AP for just about every national sports network in existence. I'm still very close to and in contact with current production staff people, ranging from Network Coordinating Producers and Independent Producers & Directors and APs to camerman operators and runners.... Most all are the guys responsible (note - RESPONSIBLE) for the overall production from making sure the engineers have the stadium clocks sync'd to the truck to the guys calling what shots we see.
Now... Last week I spent about an hour on the phone talking to two of my former colleagues who both were key figures in the W. Mich / Michigan broadcast... both are as high up in the food chain as you can get and they both filled me in on the clock situation...
First, what we saw on screen when the play happened was the EXACT time on the stadium scoreboard. All clocks were perfectly in sync as performed by the engineers prior to the game.....
Your claim that the clock wasn't sync'd is ridiculous and every person associated with NBC and the University of Michigan will agree...
As for your post last week that included the video clip of the supposed "NBC Replay Guy" showing all of the fans a clock with :01 .... That is complete total BS....
Actually, per my sources, that so-called person was not even a part of the NBC crew... he might have been taping things for the Michigan team and had a clock coming from another feed but since it was definitely not getting it's feed directly from NBCs clock sync.... it's unlikely this guy had anything to do with the broadcast... We do know that every team, college and pro, has their own camera's set up for their game studies... that's a more likely answer to who this guy was... As I a side, over the years I hired a couple of guys who worked as camera operators for their colleges football team so I'm familiar with camera placement....
In addition, any NBC cameraman who wasn't directly part of the replay team would NOT have access to the replay feed... OR, have the ability to replay directly from his camera.... their own shot and the Program feed is all they'd have access to... Plus, there's no way he would he be allowed to have a group of fans standing literally right beside him. Any cameraperson knows that would be the LAST game they'd ever work if they were that busy chumming with fans instead of listening for what the Director wants his next shot to be.
Finally,... The crew had their usual after game gathering and... TO-THE-MAN ... announcers included.... no one could figure out how or why the ref decided to use video from a Non-NBC camera that was not-sync'd camera to make his decision... The news that came out today directly from the NCAA saying proper protocol was not followed supports this..... Also, at the time of the call the Ref WAS informed that that was not the proper video for the replay.
While nothing has ever been announced as to how it happened, the theory is that someone from the B1G or the U. of Michigan intervened on the sidelines and told him to look at the incorrect, un-syn'd clock replay. The ref didn't listen to the truck telling him it was not part of their feed or part of protocol they're both required to follow.
To end, Gros-Louis... you did not have access to any factual information so please stop claiming that's what happened.
The guy with the monitor on the sideline at the game wasn't a Michigan camera person. Wasn't a freelancer. Wasn't a WMU camera person. Had no affiliation with NBC. HE WAS LITERALLY THE GUY THAT HAS THE ACTUAL REPLAY MONITOR THE REFEREE LOOKS AT FOR REPLAYS.
See his bib? His B1G hat? THe monitor that looks just like the one the officials look at during replays? BECAUSE IT WAS THE OFFICIAL'S REPLAY MONITOR! lol
Good lord.
Most educated folks have understood for the better part of the last week that the stadium clock still had :01 on it and NBC's clock was wrong when compared to the Hawkeye system Michigan had installed and is what you see on the replay monitor above. The debate over whether there was time on the clock or not has been put to bed...there was. The argument has since moved on to whether protocol was followed. Which is fine, if anyone can point to or link to the protocol and then also explain why if such a protocol existed already, why the NCAA felt the need to send out a memo a few days later to ESTABLISH a protocol. ESTABLISH a protocol that already existed that no one can point to, quote or link to?
"When a replay review requires time to be restored or otherwise adjusted, the replay official’s decision will be based on the embedded game clock contained within the program feed. If the broadcaster is unable to provide an embedded game clock, the replay official will use the game-clock graphic displayed as part of the broadcast feed. Moving forward, this timing protocol should be followed consistently at all institutions and game sites."
Look, I'm not questioning your history/career and that you might know some people. Whatever. But you seem genuinely in the dark about the facts that have transpired and become quite well accepted since early last week and instead the discussion is about a protocol (that never formally existed) being followed or not. The FBS says it wasn't. And I'd agree with them if they could just show me it existed to begin with. But since no one can, I think what the clock in the stadium said should trump everything else. And oddly, their Sept 8th memo says specifically The official time for all college football games is the time displayed on the in-stadium game clock. And it said :01.
You go right ahead and continue to believe a camera showing an unsync'd clock to a bunch of fans is part of the official NBC replay station... can't be. The mere fact that no one I know can id him as part of NBC replay crew - NBC hat or not (those can be bought online) .... is justification enough for me to call it what it is... fake.... I also don't care that a couple of your buddies at the game THOUGHT they saw :01 on the clock...maybe they should have stopped drinking at halftime. Everyone else in the world understands the technology behind the sync'd clock and that the NBC clock was correct showing :00 before the ball was touched.
You should read LoneStarHoosiers post on page 4 of this thread ....it includes a link to the Crimson Cast interview with former Broadcast Engineer Zach Singer (sp?)... He explains how it was not possible for TV & stadium clocks to be showing differing times... it's just not possible.... While I don't recall ever working with Zach I do know he is highly respected in the industry.
It has all been explained... sorry you refuse to except the truth.
This is the last time I'll be responding to your post.
@drjb I believe that's really what WMU's complaint requested. I think they accepted that they can't reverse the outcome, but as I recall, they requested the playoff/bowl committees consider it as a UM loss and WMU win, which I thought was fair and smart.
Dude, you're not even repeating back to me the things I'm telling you. I didn't say it was an NBC replay guy with an NBC hat. Did you read what I wrote? Did you watch the video? it is THE BIG TEN OFFICIAL REPLAY MONITOR THAT THEY CARRY ONTO THE FIELD FOR THE REFEREE. That is not an NBC monitor or a Fox monitor or a CBS monitor. It is THE monitor the referee looks at on the field with the same feed the replay booth uses for their reviews.You go right ahead and continue to believe a camera showing an unsync'd clock to a bunch of fans is part of the official NBC replay station... can't be. The mere fact that no one I know can id him as part of NBC replay crew - NBC hat or not (those can be bought online) .... is justification enough for me to call it what it is... fake.... I also don't care that a couple of your buddies at the game THOUGHT they saw :01 on the clock...maybe they should have stopped drinking at halftime. Everyone else in the world understands the technology behind the sync'd clock and that the NBC clock was correct showing :00 before the ball was touched.
You should read LoneStarHoosiers post on page 4 of this thread ....it includes a link to the Crimson Cast interview with former Broadcast Engineer Zach Singer (sp?)... He explains how it was not possible for TV & stadium clocks to be showing differing times... it's just not possible.... While I don't recall ever working with Zach I do know he is highly respected in the industry.
It has all been explained... sorry you refuse to except the truth.
This is the last time I'll be responding to your post.
Furthermore, someone should clue in the WMU coach about your theory because here he is literally telling us that when he had the opportunity to watch the replay and listen to the officials' communication in real time and go frame by frame with the stadium clock in the view, there was time remaining on the clock.
https://twitter.com/theDigitalCCH/status/2100721086958535042?s=20
And here is a very clear view that there was :01 on the stadium clock when the DB touched the ball.
https://twitter.com/Dunked0n4Free/status/2100616750731604279?s=20
But yeah, I'm the one who is full of it.