The U.S. has now ousted the heads of Venezuela and Iran and used tactical strikes on both countries. What does real success look like in each?
To me, a requirement of success is that it creates more good than the harm done to our rep, money spent, lives lost, enmity among terrorists, etc. What would satisfy that?
PLEASE: no mention of Trump, Republicans, Democrats, Biden, Obama, etc. Focus on the issue.
Venezuela - Democracy in place, which would presumably be pro-western & pro-US. Lots of economic opportunity there.
Iran - decimate their ability to make war, mitigate their ability to cause us trouble. I’d love to say decimate their ability to make trouble through proxies but not sure that can be achieved. The people of the Middle East are unlikely to achieve anything like a democracy & certainly won’t be pro-western. We can only hope they wipe each other out before they wipe us out.
creates more good than the harm done to our rep, money spent, lives lost, enmity among terrorists, etc.Too late for each of your criteria. An honest assessment of the history of Iran and Israel since WW II shows Iran’s actions against the US to be less egregious than vice versa. Thus, the correct solution would logically involve honest reciprocal relations going forward. Independent of Israel which made its own bed and should deal with it on their own.
Instead in this conflict the US has allied itself with a genocidal regime currently putting its finishing touches on the Palestinians in Gaza. By bombing the oil refinery (or whatever that facility is) near Tehran, Israel showed no amelioration from its genocidal tendencies, thus the US reputation becomes akin to genocidal, fairly or not.
Any money spent is a waste, any lives lost far worse.
Instead of endeavoring to create a sane and safe future for our progeny, the senior citizens in the US are saddling younger generations with blood enemies far into the future. The notion that warfare is a solution in this complex day and age is not only barbarian but far worse, infantile and simple minded.
creates more good than the harm done to our rep, money spent, lives lost, enmity among terrorists, etc.Too late for each of your criteria. An honest assessment of the history of Iran and Israel since WW II shows Iran’s actions against the US to be less egregious than vice versa. Thus, the correct solution would logically involve honest reciprocal relations going forward. Independent of Israel which made its own bed and should deal with it on their own.Instead in this conflict the US has allied itself with a genocidal regime currently putting its finishing touches on the Palestinians in Gaza. By bombing the oil refinery (or whatever that facility is) near Tehran, Israel showed no amelioration from its genocidal tendencies, thus the US reputation becomes akin to genocidal, fairly or not.
Any money spent is a waste, any lives lost far worse.
Instead of endeavoring to create a sane and safe future for our progeny, the senior citizens in the US are saddling younger generations with blood enemies far into the future. The notion that warfare is a solution in this complex day and age is not only barbarian but far worse, infantile and simple minded.
What year did Iran declare war on the United States?
creates more good than the harm done to our rep, money spent, lives lost, enmity among terrorists, etc.Too late for each of your criteria. An honest assessment of the history of Iran and Israel since WW II shows Iran’s actions against the US to be less egregious than vice versa. Thus, the correct solution would logically involve honest reciprocal relations going forward. Independent of Israel which made its own bed and should deal with it on their own.Instead in this conflict the US has allied itself with a genocidal regime currently putting its finishing touches on the Palestinians in Gaza. By bombing the oil refinery (or whatever that facility is) near Tehran, Israel showed no amelioration from its genocidal tendencies, thus the US reputation becomes akin to genocidal, fairly or not.
Any money spent is a waste, any lives lost far worse.
Instead of endeavoring to create a sane and safe future for our progeny, the senior citizens in the US are saddling younger generations with blood enemies far into the future. The notion that warfare is a solution in this complex day and age is not only barbarian but far worse, infantile and simple minded.
Venezuela - democratic elections. Allow western energy interests back into the country via investment vehicles which would help ameliorate the economic distress they face.
Iran - basically become Turkey. Best case scenario. A secularly goverened Islamic country.
As to your points above:
An honest assessment of the history of Iran and Israel since WW II shows Iran’s actions against the US to be less egregious than vice versa. Thus, the correct solution would logically involve honest reciprocal relations going forward.
I don't agree that much with your first sentence though will cede we did fvck around putting the Shah in place. After 1979 though, Iran has been an intolerable problem for the US and its allies in that region. It also aligns with other bad actors all over the globe giving them further foothold in the ME. Secondly, "honest reciprocal relations?" With Iran? Seriously?
The notion that warfare is a solution in this complex day and age is not only barbarian but far worse, infantile and simple minded.
Ahh, does Iran know that? What do we do when the forces aligned against us don't play by the rules you want? do we just pack up and go home? Would you like more Chinese and Russian influence in the ME? B/c that's what you'd get. The west would be cutoff. We're too far down the rabbit hole (oil drives the world) to suddenly back out. And to do so will require a generation at least of separating our economy from the rollercoaster of ME politics. Which would mean we drill more here, frack more here, and build nuclear. I'm for the last one but it takes 7-10 years to get large scale nuclear online and nobody wants it in their backyard.
Venezuela - democratic elections. Allow western energy interests back into the country via investment vehicles which would help ameliorate the economic distress they face.
Iran - basically become Turkey. Best case scenario. A secularly goverened Islamic country.
No matter how "successful" these excursions might be, I can't bring myself to think they are justified.
After 1979 though, Iran has been an intolerable problem for the US and its allies in that region. It also aligns with other bad actors all over the globe giving them further foothold in the ME. Secondly, "honest reciprocal relations?" With Iran? Seriously?If one separates US interests from Israeli interests, then Iran has not been such an intolerable problem as you suggest. Pakistan is currently far more problematic for the US. What do we do about their nukes?
As for laughing off reciprocal relations with Iran, we’ve never tried in good faith
On oil, the world supply determines the price and we get very little oil or natural gas type energies from the Middle East so that’s not really an issue.Ahh, does Iran know that? What do we do when the forces aligned against us don't play by the rules you want? do we just pack up and go home? Would you like more Chinese and Russian influence in the ME? B/c that's what you'd get. The west would be cutoff. We're too far down the rabbit hole (oil drives the world) to suddenly back out. And to do so will require a generation at least of separating our economy from the rollercoaster of ME politics. Which would mean we drill more here, frack more here, and build nuclear. I'm for the last one but it takes 7-10 years to get large scale nuclear online and nobody wants it in their backyard.
Iran with nuclear capabilities is not “in our backyard.“ But that’s where the argument becomes unrealistic. The bad actors you’re referring to will sooner or later acquire a nuke somehow or another. What then? To paraphrase bin Laden, there’s a reason Sweden’s not an enemy. Israel is doomed. It’s only a matter of time. Do we want to create enemies of a billion plus Muslims to ally with genocidal maniacs?
Stalin and Mao killed far more of their own citizens than Hitler killed Jews and yet we move on and deal with Russia, China and Germany. The only reason we attack Iran is because Israel keeps provoking its neighbors.
Justified? shit, they're probably not even legal. But congress is a neutered, feckless, cuck of an institution so here we are.Venezuela - democratic elections. Allow western energy interests back into the country via investment vehicles which would help ameliorate the economic distress they face.
Iran - basically become Turkey. Best case scenario. A secularly goverened Islamic country.
No matter how "successful" these excursions might be, I can't bring myself to think they are justified.
I would prefer not to let this thread devolve into a debate on Israel v. Palestine.creates more good than the harm done to our rep, money spent, lives lost, enmity among terrorists, etc.Too late for each of your criteria. An honest assessment of the history of Iran and Israel since WW II shows Iran’s actions against the US to be less egregious than vice versa. Thus, the correct solution would logically involve honest reciprocal relations going forward. Independent of Israel which made its own bed and should deal with it on their own.Instead in this conflict the US has allied itself with a genocidal regime currently putting its finishing touches on the Palestinians in Gaza. By bombing the oil refinery (or whatever that facility is) near Tehran, Israel showed no amelioration from its genocidal tendencies, thus the US reputation becomes akin to genocidal, fairly or not.
Any money spent is a waste, any lives lost far worse.
Instead of endeavoring to create a sane and safe future for our progeny, the senior citizens in the US are saddling younger generations with blood enemies far into the future. The notion that warfare is a solution in this complex day and age is not only barbarian but far worse, infantile and simple minded.
Justified? shit, they're probably not even legal. But congress is a neutered, feckless, cuck of an institution so here we are.Venezuela - democratic elections. Allow western energy interests back into the country via investment vehicles which would help ameliorate the economic distress they face.
Iran - basically become Turkey. Best case scenario. A secularly goverened Islamic country.
No matter how "successful" these excursions might be, I can't bring myself to think they are justified.
I've started to compare congress to the NCAA in terms of what they do effectively, which is basically nothing.
creates more good than the harm done to our rep, money spent, lives lost, enmity among terrorists, etc.Too late for each of your criteria. An honest assessment of the history of Iran and Israel since WW II shows Iran’s actions against the US to be less egregious than vice versa. Thus, the correct solution would logically involve honest reciprocal relations going forward. Independent of Israel which made its own bed and should deal with it on their own.Instead in this conflict the US has allied itself with a genocidal regime currently putting its finishing touches on the Palestinians in Gaza. By bombing the oil refinery (or whatever that facility is) near Tehran, Israel showed no amelioration from its genocidal tendencies, thus the US reputation becomes akin to genocidal, fairly or not.
Any money spent is a waste, any lives lost far worse.
Instead of endeavoring to create a sane and safe future for our progeny, the senior citizens in the US are saddling younger generations with blood enemies far into the future. The notion that warfare is a solution in this complex day and age is not only barbarian but far worse, infantile and simple minded.
Venezuela - democratic elections. Allow western energy interests back into the country via investment vehicles which would help ameliorate the economic distress they face.
Iran - basically become Turkey. Best case scenario. A secularly goverened Islamic country.
As to your points above:
An honest assessment of the history of Iran and Israel since WW II shows Iran’s actions against the US to be less egregious than vice versa. Thus, the correct solution would logically involve honest reciprocal relations going forward.
I don't agree that much with your first sentence though will cede we did fvck around putting the Shah in place. After 1979 though, Iran has been an intolerable problem for the US and its allies in that region. It also aligns with other bad actors all over the globe giving them further foothold in the ME. Secondly, "honest reciprocal relations?" With Iran? Seriously?
The notion that warfare is a solution in this complex day and age is not only barbarian but far worse, infantile and simple minded.
Ahh, does Iran know that? What do we do when the forces aligned against us don't play by the rules you want? do we just pack up and go home? Would you like more Chinese and Russian influence in the ME? B/c that's what you'd get. The west would be cutoff. We're too far down the rabbit hole (oil drives the world) to suddenly back out. And to do so will require a generation at least of separating our economy from the rollercoaster of ME politics. Which would mean we drill more here, frack more here, and build nuclear. I'm for the last one but it takes 7-10 years to get large scale nuclear online and nobody wants it in their backyard.
The U.S. has now ousted the heads of Venezuela and Iran and used tactical strikes on both countries. What does real success look like in each?
To me, a requirement of success is that it creates more good than the harm done to our rep, money spent, lives lost, enmity among terrorists, etc. What would satisfy that?
PLEASE: no mention of Trump, Republicans, Democrats, Biden, Obama, etc. Focus on the issue.
Venezuela is already a success. I'll add Iran to the list if it doesn't turn into a prolonged conflict or war.
In history, sometimes the level of success trumps justifications, or becomes the justification. In the U.S., we have lots of examples of that from the very beginning of our nation. Jefferson himself thought the Louisiana Purchase would have been unconstitutional--until it presented itself to him. When he weighed all the benefits, he rationalized it away, and for the U.S., thankfully he did. Not many look back and say "oh woe is me, why did he do that?" today. I'm sure the same holds true throughout history in every nation and society.Venezuela - democratic elections. Allow western energy interests back into the country via investment vehicles which would help ameliorate the economic distress they face.
Iran - basically become Turkey. Best case scenario. A secularly goverened Islamic country.
No matter how "successful" these excursions might be, I can't bring myself to think they are justified.
By the way, that's not to say we shouldn't weigh the loss of legitimacy (viewed as a psychological view towards a people's govt or leaders) as a cost, sometimes a very heavy one, depending on the circumstances. I'm just saying that sometimes a great outcome can outweigh that cost. Everything is a tradeoff in these matters, after all.
If one separates US interests from Israeli interests, then Iran has not been such an intolerable problem as you suggest. Pakistan is currently far more problematic for the US. What do we do about their nukes?
After 1979 though, Iran has been an intolerable problem for the US and its allies in that region. It also aligns with other bad actors all over the globe giving them further foothold in the ME. Secondly, "honest reciprocal relations?" With Iran? Seriously?
As for laughing off reciprocal relations with Iran, we’ve never tried in good faith
On oil, the world supply determines the price and we get very little oil or natural gas type energies from the Middle East so that’s not really an issue.Ahh, does Iran know that? What do we do when the forces aligned against us don't play by the rules you want? do we just pack up and go home? Would you like more Chinese and Russian influence in the ME? B/c that's what you'd get. The west would be cutoff. We're too far down the rabbit hole (oil drives the world) to suddenly back out. And to do so will require a generation at least of separating our economy from the rollercoaster of ME politics. Which would mean we drill more here, frack more here, and build nuclear. I'm for the last one but it takes 7-10 years to get large scale nuclear online and nobody wants it in their backyard.
Iran with nuclear capabilities is not “in our backyard.“ But that’s where the argument becomes unrealistic. The bad actors you’re referring to will sooner or later acquire a nuke somehow or another. What then? To paraphrase bin Laden, there’s a reason Sweden’s not an enemy. Israel is doomed. It’s only a matter of time. Do we want to create enemies of a billion plus Muslims to ally with genocidal maniacs?
Stalin and Mao killed far more of their own citizens than Hitler killed Jews and yet we move on and deal with Russia, China and Germany. The only reason we attack Iran is because Israel keeps provoking its neighbors.
You're completely minimizing the degree of religious fanatacism in Iran's leadership and ridiculously exagerrating how bad Israel has been in relation to the nations around them. Israel didn't start the Six Day War, Yom Kippur War, current war with Gaza, etc.
As for calling Israel "genocidal maniacs" (shit, I didn't want to delve into this, but here we are):
- 2000: 1.1 million
- 2010: ~1.5–1.6 million
- 2013: >1.78 million (Based on 687k increase between 2000–2013)
- 2017: 1.89 million (Census)
- 2020: 2.1 million
- 2022: 1.99 million
- 2023: 2.09–2.3 million
- 2024: 2.1 million (Reflecting a, 6-10.6% decline from peak)
- 2025 (Projected): 2.13 million
That kind of population growth is logically inconsistent with "genocide." Did people die in the war that Gaza started? Yes. What did you expect?
The larger number of, and more troublesome, "maniacs" in that region are Islamic fundamentalists. Maybe you could list the number of fanatical Jewish/Israeli fundamentalists (they do exist and do have power in Israel, to be sure) that have killed Americans in the last 50 years and we could compare that number to the Islamic fundamentalists?
For Iran, to know what success is we have to know why we launched the attacks. Someone might say they are making dinner and pop out with a delicious strawberry milkshake. It might be great, but it isn't dinner so isn't a success.
So we have to know why we attacked to judge success. We don't know why we went in, and judging by comments made by the administration, I am not sure anyone knows.
I doubt we get a government that is very different. We allegedly already set their nuclear program back. We have clearly damaged their missile capabilities, but that is temporary. Same for drones. Are the Iranians that were being fired upon a month ago happy we did this?
In 20 years we might know how successful this is. History can take a while to finish writing.