@unclemark No offense, I'm not sure what to do with the use of the word, barbarity, as it relates to my people. I'm not going to confirm or deny it's relevancy, it just hurts and I'm still coming to terms with the entire change of tone.
I can't believe you consider those who are perpetrating these atrocities "your people" just because you share a common faith and support a Jewish state.
let me clarify my statement, yes these are my people by religion and sometimes culture. But no they would never be welcome in my house, I would never pray with them, and those who commit war crimes should be thrown in jail. Unfortunately many don’t differentiate Jews, so by association only they are “my people.”.@unclemark No offense, I'm not sure what to do with the use of the word, barbarity, as it relates to my people. I'm not going to confirm or deny it's relevancy, it just hurts and I'm still coming to terms with the entire change of tone.
I can't believe you consider those who are perpetrating these atrocities "your people" just because you share a common faith and support a Jewish state.
Unfortunately many don’t differentiate Jews, so by association only they are “my people.”.
It works the other way too. Many don't differentiate those critical of Israel from anti-Semites.
the longer this goes on, the worse it will get for Israel in terms of worldview. We all agreed on that a long time ago.
From the beginning. And Hamas knows this. It's why they've fought this war the way they have and why they invite Palestinian suffering.
Have you not spent a lot of time around Jewish people? Many have a very strong attachment to their tribe (my Jewish friends literally refer to it like that) and talk and think in terms of "their people" frequently. I think it's a blessing and a curse.I can’t believe you consider those who are perpetrating these atrocities “your people” just because you share a common faith and support a Jewish state.
Have you not spent a lot of time around Jewish people? Many have a very strong attachment to their tribe (my Jewish friends literally refer to it like that) and talk and think in terms of "their people" frequently. I think it's a blessing and a curse.I can’t believe you consider those who are perpetrating these atrocities “your people” just because you share a common faith and support a Jewish state.
If they are continuing to justify what is being done in Gaza, then they're assholes. And it sounds like Eppy agrees.
I see. So you complain about people labeling everyone who wants Israel to forget about their hostages as anti-semites, but everyone who sees the culprit here as Hamas is an asshole?If they are continuing to justify what is being done in Gaza, then they’re assholes. And it sounds like Eppy agrees.
🙄
Here's a recent video from CBS News who says there is no evidence that Hamas is stealing the food being provided through humanitarian aid (including by Israel). No doubt sources and reports like this are changing public opinion. But check out 1:54-2:16. Who are those guys driving the trucks with masks, machine guns, and all the supplies? IDF?
That video looks an awful lot like this one that the IDF put out debunking the notion that Hamas is not commandeering food and supplies:
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-862584
And just so my position can't be misconstrued: I don't want starving innocent people in Gaza. I hope more aid flows in to help. I also hope drones or IDF personnel target Hamas trying to steal it and blow them to smithereens.
https://david-collier.com/the-truth-behind-the-viral-gaza-famine-photo/
https://www.commentary.org/seth-mandel/why-the-truth-matters/
And just so my position can’t be misconstrued: I don’t want starving innocent people in Gaza. I hope more aid flows in to help. I also hope drones or IDF personnel target Hamas trying to steal it and blow them to smithereens.
From numerous reports it sounds like the IDF's idea of crowd control is opening fire. Of course that could always be nothing more than preventing Hamas from stealing the aid.
The problem with these types of arguments is that they use a valid point to illogically defend an invalid conclusion. Of course Hamas uses propaganda. They're in a conflict. Everyone engaged in conflict uses propaganda. Of course media in the West are too quick to publish without being sure they know exactly what it is they are publishing. That's how it works nowadays, as the legacy media are forced to engage in the tactics of less reputable citizen reporters in order to stay relevant. It's hard to trust anything. These writers are correct to bring those things up. They may go too far in accusing the media of colluding with Hamas propagandists knowingly, but they may even be correct on that point. I don't know.
But the next step, to use it as a way to deny that the starvation is real or that the Israeli government holds none of the blame, is simply unjustifiable. We know people are starving because we can do math. We don't need to investigate every single photo to determine whether that individual actually suffers from hunger to know that the number of individuals in Gaza who need food far outstrips the amount of food Gaza can produce or Israel allows in. When someone finds food on the open market in Gaza, it's often far too expensive to buy. When people make their way to the GHF aid distribution sites, they often find they have come too late, and the supplies have run out. These are the kinds of things that happen in severe shortages. The hunger is real.
Cynically, we do know that it is in the interest of Hamas for Gazans to suffer. It helps them push their narrative internationally, and increases the odds (in their minds) that this will end with them still in some position of power or influence. It's awful. But what the writers you linked would never admit is that, unfortunately, it is also in the interest of the Israeli government for Gazans to suffer. The people currently in charge in Israel very clearly have a long-term goal of doing away with the semi-autonomous Palestinian proto-state. They will eventually annex all of it. Some of them have even been so forward as to admit this publicly. But they can't do that with all those Palestinians there. They can't absorb that many Arabs without threatening the stability of the Jewish state. So, in their minds, many of those Palestinians need to go. Starving them out of Gaza, again cynically, is a potential means to those ends.
TL;DR Anyone ignoring the horrible motives of Hamas, of spreading propaganda to prop up a specific pro-Hamas narrative, should be ashamed of themselves. But so should the people who use those actions as an excuse to whitewash what Israel is doing or deny the reality on the ground.
I don’t think we, sitting here in the US, can know now what the reality on the ground is. I think that’s our big point of disagreement between you and me.The problem with these types of arguments is that they use a valid point to illogically defend an invalid conclusion. Of course Hamas uses propaganda. They're in a conflict. Everyone engaged in conflict uses propaganda. Of course media in the West are too quick to publish without being sure they know exactly what it is they are publishing. That's how it works nowadays, as the legacy media are forced to engage in the tactics of less reputable citizen reporters in order to stay relevant. It's hard to trust anything. These writers are correct to bring those things up. They may go too far in accusing the media of colluding with Hamas propagandists knowingly, but they may even be correct on that point. I don't know.
But the next step, to use it as a way to deny that the starvation is real or that the Israeli government holds none of the blame, is simply unjustifiable. We know people are starving because we can do math. We don't need to investigate every single photo to determine whether that individual actually suffers from hunger to know that the number of individuals in Gaza who need food far outstrips the amount of food Gaza can produce or Israel allows in. When someone finds food on the open market in Gaza, it's often far too expensive to buy. When people make their way to the GHF aid distribution sites, they often find they have come too late, and the supplies have run out. These are the kinds of things that happen in severe shortages. The hunger is real.
Cynically, we do know that it is in the interest of Hamas for Gazans to suffer. It helps them push their narrative internationally, and increases the odds (in their minds) that this will end with them still in some position of power or influence. It's awful. But what the writers you linked would never admit is that, unfortunately, it is also in the interest of the Israeli government for Gazans to suffer. The people currently in charge in Israel very clearly have a long-term goal of doing away with the semi-autonomous Palestinian proto-state. They will eventually annex all of it. Some of them have even been so forward as to admit this publicly. But they can't do that with all those Palestinians there. They can't absorb that many Arabs without threatening the stability of the Jewish state. So, in their minds, many of those Palestinians need to go. Starving them out of Gaza, again cynically, is a potential means to those ends.
TL;DR Anyone ignoring the horrible motives of Hamas, of spreading propaganda to prop up a specific pro-Hamas narrative, should be ashamed of themselves. But so should the people who use those actions as an excuse to whitewash what Israel is doing or deny the reality on the ground.
Israeli-biased sources say they deliver much more than Hamas-biased organizations report. So who do we believe and how can you turn that into a math problem? It’s a credibility question at heart. Rightly or wrongly, I give Hamas no credibility. Their entire war strategy is based on creating myths —much more so than Israel (although they clearly fight back on the offensive on propaganda too).
Hamas and aid groups have been crying wolf about starvation for two years, so I’m skeptical of those same reports now coming from biased sources and ones that fall for every trick Hamas throws out.
Long term, there is no way Israel can absorb millions of people trained to hate them. It’s a ridiculous ask. I have no idea what the evidence is for your idea that Israel wants to starve out the population as part of some long term plan to annex all of the Gaza territories.
I’d also love to read an article or see a news source like the NYT, CBS, et al. talk about the war crimes being committed by Hamas at least half as much as they speculate about that with Israel.
Israeli-biased sources say they deliver much more than Hamas-biased organizations report. So who do we believe and how can you turn that into a math problem?
Israel claims the GHF has distributed about 1.4 million food boxes. Each one has 42,500 calories. That's about 500 calories per Gazan per day since the operation began in late May, or about 200 calories per Gazan per day since Israel shut off outside food distribution in early March. Even using Israel's numbers, it's not remotely enough food. And that doesn't even touch on the fact that these food boxes are mostly bulk dried food, which are difficult to prepare in a war zone, and which are sorely lacking in vital nutrients, so they work to ease starvation temporarily, but that's about it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd787er1qz4o
I have no idea what the evidence is for your idea that Israel wants to starve out the population as part of some long term plan to annex all of the Gaza territories.
Not just Gaza, all Palestinian lands. You can see it creeping from their symbolic vote endorsing the eventual annexation of the West Bank, from Bibi's proposal to begin annexing Gaza, and ultimately from Israel's current long-standing policy regarding new settlements in the West Bank. They are gradually taking all the land. They will have to figure out what they want to do with the people. I think in a perfect Israeli world, life becomes so intolerable for the Palestinians, especially the Gazans, that the international community is forced to step up and agree to some sort of mass migration plan.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-votes-71-13-for-non-binding-motion-calling-to-annex-west-bank/
@unclemark even those I disagree with will always be my people. Their actions and opinions while wrong and contrary to the values of Judaism come from a place of generational pain. The Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews specifically overcame alot to make it to Israel. I don't believe the Holocaust warrants treating people like the Palestinians are being treated, but I understand the pain and suffereing our people went through.
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