@seyton it was a bad year, relatively speaking, to have to build a full team from the portal. Last year's portal class was weak. IU's war chest was also greatly diminished comparatively to other top programs as rev share kicked in. While still having top money we don't have the top 5/6 money that Bigfoot squandered, which is another MAJOR reason why he should have been sent packing after year 3 and why ppl are still upset with QB and the other cronies. Last year would have been a much better time/period to rebuild the full roster with a new coach.
QB and Bigfoot did everything they could to put the final nail in the program's coffin to line their own pockets.
Hopefully DDV can get something going this year even with ups/downs and can get a better portal haul heading into next year (will need less pieces).
@surjay I think I would agree with showing something pretty positive within two years. Exactly what that means I can't say but we've tried giving coaches more time even when it was pretty clear to observers that it wasn't working. Now with the portal, unlimited transfers, and NIL I think the move will be more rapid iteration until you find gold, rather than a coach getting more chances to prove himself. Whether this will work better in the long run is to be seen.
@seyton Definitely remember. Good points then, and good points to remind everyone about, now. That call for perspective, is helpful, and I appreciate it. One of the counterpoints that I have though... mid major guys can move without the ball consistently...they can consistently defend and rebound with more urgency and intensity. I know this, because THIS group has done those things, at times. One thing you have a decent chance of getting when you build a roster full of lower conference 1st teamers, POYs, etc... should be, more consistency with those sorts of things.
Its still early in the year. DeVries, Wilkerson, and Conerway are ALL used to being playmakers with the ball in their hands. They all have multiple years of being relied upon to do that. So I guess it's fairly natural that when games break down, games get a little more ragged and physical, that those 3 guys will revert to more ISO/playmaking. CDD has to be able to direct them to NOT do that... there has to be calls, timeouts taken and direction given, keys, plays run, whatever to keep them playing the spread out, passing, screening, cutting that has been very efficient and successful for them.
Defensively, and rebounding... its more about just overall intensity, grit, and effort. But we can overcome that side of the ball, and those limitations, if we can remain efficient offensively, remain a higher volume and effective 3 point shooting team.
DeVries referenced it again after the game last night. We've now had 3 games where the offensive movement has stagnated for long periods. And the output has suffered as a result. We're 8 games in to the season. That's roughly 25% of the season gone. Hopefully DeVries doesn't have to talk about that too many more times. He shouldn't have had to already. Stop getting locked up with defenders, overdribbling. Spread yourselves out wider if you need to. And get back to the moving, cutting, screening, and passing offense.
@gerdis I'm guessing 3 years is the number. If he's trending upwards at the end of the 3rd year (Top 3-4 B10, 2 NCAA's, a win or two in those, etc) then I think he's fine. Anything short of that and the seat is going to be very hot. This isn't the old NCAA where a rebuild should/would take 3-4 years to get your players in and up an running your system, but IMHO 2 years is just too short...unless you've got a disaster like Louisville had.
@seyton it was a bad year, relatively speaking, to have to build a full team from the portal. Last year's portal class was weak. IU's war chest was also greatly diminished comparatively to other top programs as rev share kicked in. While still having top money we don't have the top 5/6 money that Bigfoot squandered, which is another MAJOR reason why he should have been sent packing after year 3 and why ppl are still upset with QB and the other cronies. Last year would have been a much better time/period to rebuild the full roster with a new coach.
QB and Bigfoot did everything they could to put the final nail in the program's coffin to line their own pockets.
Hopefully DDV can get something going this year even with ups/downs and can get a better portal haul heading into next year (will need less pieces).
We know it was a weak class. I still find it hard to believe there weren't a couple of Joey Brunk's out there at a mid major that he could've thrown $500k at to entice them to Bloomington.
@seyton Definitely remember. Good points then, and good points to remind everyone about, now. That call for perspective, is helpful, and I appreciate it. One of the counterpoints that I have though... mid major guys can move without the ball consistently...they can consistently defend and rebound with more urgency and intensity. I know this, because THIS group has done those things, at times. One thing you have a decent chance of getting when you build a roster full of lower conference 1st teamers, POYs, etc... should be, more consistency with those sorts of things.
It's still early in the year. DeVries, Wilkerson, and Conerway are ALL used to being playmakers with the ball in their hands. They all have multiple years of being relied upon to do that. So, I guess it's fairly natural that when games break down, games get a little more ragged and physical, that those 3 guys will revert to more ISO/playmaking. CDD has to be able to direct them to NOT do that... there has to be calls, timeouts taken and direction given, keys, plays run, whatever to keep them playing the spread out, passing, screening, cutting that has been very efficient and successful for them.
Defensively, and rebounding... it's more about just overall intensity, grit, and effort. But we can overcome that side of the ball, and those limitations, if we can remain efficient offensively, remain a higher volume and effective 3-point shooting team.
DeVries referenced it again after the game last night. We've now had 3 games where the offensive movement has stagnated for long periods. And the output has suffered as a result. We're 8 games into the season. That's roughly 25% of the season gone. Hopefully DeVries doesn't have to talk about that too many more times. He shouldn't have had to already. Stop getting locked up with defenders, overdribbling. Spread yourselves out wider if you need to. And get back to the moving, cutting, screening, and passing offense.
I agree 100%. Somebody at The Hoosier was chastising people, "it's just one loss, on the road, in their first road game. The sky's not falling." which I thought was very disingenuous. I made the same point that it's now three out of eight games that there was severe lack of interest/effort.
One thing about DeVries and Wilkerson, and to a lesser extent, Connerway, is that they've all had difficulty finishing in the paint (not just at the rim). I wonder if that's a lack of athleticism (hence why there were in lower divisions) or just needing an adjustment period and they'll eventually catch up. My suspicion is that it's a little of both.
We've seen them move themselves and the ball tons more than they did in the three bad games, and I wonder what it is that goes wrong when that happens. I haven't watched closely enough, though I will be going forward, to see if teams are not helping off DeVries and Wilkerson (not just running them off the three point line) and that's what's causing things to bog down.
There's one thing I can't stand is lack of effort and energy. I absolutely hate that. And after so much of that and bad recruiting and bad rosters and bad basketball and bad systems and bad philosophies I don't have a lot of patience left. I think there are a lot of people who feel that way. Oddly enough I think the impatience will be more intense because we all saw, and were overjoyed with, the movement and shooting in the five good games. They showed it to us. They can't take it back now.
@dbmhoosier A shit ton were available, you can look at any shitty B1G team. Hell Crocker would do wonders for this team, how much you think Minny gave him to come? Bailey is just soft as a grape, I dunno what we were thinking bringing him to the big ten. Also Tucker is so damn slow put someone athletic on him and say don't leave for any reason. If he isn't open he isn't creating a thing. We are gonna be an easy guard this year.
@dbmhoosier A shit ton were available, you can look at any shitty B1G team. Hell Crocker would do wonders for this team, how much you think Minny gave him to come? Bailey is just soft as a grape, I dunno what we were thinking bringing him to the big ten. Also Tucker is so damn slow put someone athletic on him and say don't leave for any reason. If he isn't open he isn't creating a thing. We are gonna be an easy guard this year.
Yeah Tucker really pissed me off in the first half when we were up 8 and he had that easy dunk. Instead of going full steam he slow walked it and got stuffed at the rim. If that was Pat Knight he'd probably be in the Hall running stairs right now. The lack of intensity is concerning.
@dbmhoosier He looks like he could lose about 20 lbs. My friends wife asked who is that fat dude on our team... "Well, he is our best player". gulp
@dbmhoosier On that point, probably. I think DDV probably leaned too hard on only getting the types of guys he thinks fit in his system, which a lot of plodding big guys don't (the types of guys our rosters are typically full of who can't catch the ball, run fast or do much of anything).
Its also clear he values character a bit. Bigfoot took anybody with a high rating who'd commit. We've also had prior coaches try to retain the prior regimes players regardless of fit in the new system, chemistry with new guys or character and its not amounted to any high level of success. Neither Archie nor Bigfoot's first year was anything special.
Archie and Bigfoot's tenures were also riddled with head cases every single year doing insane things on and off the court. Chemistry issues galore. Players that don't fit together, etc.
It appears DDV tried to avoid all that and perhaps tried to avoid it too hard to the detriment of the full picture.
@surjay Good call ... it's not an apples to apples comparison.
I agree Pope and a few others are comps, but I'm most interested in the two guys "connected" (for lack of a better term) to the IU coaching position: May and McCollum. Wonder where IU, Iowa, and Michigan will be in three years. If May continues to kill it and BM does what he does with programs, DD had better damn well show out.
@kkott In my lifetime, the only thing remotely as incomprehensible in sports as IU's meteoric rise is the Olympic hockey victory over USSR in 1980.
Some great insight above fellas :
so imo:
1. 2 years of no tournament and lackluster performances like we saw on Wednesday and CDD is definitely on the hot seat.
2. it's very odd to me that no one from WVU came with him. The more I consider it the more it makes me uneasy
3. Our mid major boys lack size speed and strength.. so on their best day with all cylinders pumping they could struggle to compete with the upper echelon , even if those teams are not having a good day.
4. He's constructed a roster that could win at drake. But not here. I posted earlier that I worry if he can attract the right kinds of players to succeed here. Can't trot this roster out there and try to sell me on how this is a winning team. It's not.
5. our offense theoretically can be effective but because our our deficits it will be ineffective... you can see once they run through the set once and aren't having any success their body language changes to panic , frustration and confusion. If I were an opposing coach I'd actually play a 1-2-2 zone and pressure the wings. There's no threat down low that I can't overcome with my size and reach. IOW Bailey ain't beating me down low nor at the elbow .. Alexis will get some buckets but I can live with that.
and Seyton i too remember your posts about DePaul. I'm near by you and have watched them a little since your comments. Biggest difference is "this is Indiana". So those improvements there won't cut it here
No, they certainly won't, and even though the mid-major players we brought in are a lot better than the ones brought in by DePaul it's interesting to see bits and pieces of the same pattern developing with IU.
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