Given how much money the NBA teams have lost over the last two decades, I'm not sure the owners shouldn't be wearing these shirts.
https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/45778770/wnba-all-stars-wear-pay-us-owe-us-warmup-shirts
So stupid. They better hope they aren't forced to write checks payable to the people who have funded this shit show.
Diligence is the mother of good luck. Plough deep while sluggards sleep and you shall have corn to sell and keep. Work as if you were to live 100 years. Pray as if you were to die tomorrow. All progress springs from work. Work has laid the foundation of every fortune in America. – Benjamin Franklin
POTFB
I'm not sure I always take what corporations say about profit at face value. I don't have any details to contradict the NBA, nor CBS on Colbert, but studios and sports teams have a long history of playing with the books to show what they want. I suspect a month ago if Brad had gone to CBS to buy Colbert's show he would have received some documentation about what a great value it is.
I recall an interview with James Garner over his lawsuit against NBC. Rockford had good ratings, and was the most syndicated show at the time. Yet it had never made a profit according to NBC, so Garner had received nothing from his profit incentives. In the interview he spoke how NBC would spin up small companies. One was a company that picked up film from the shoot at the end of the day and deliver across LA to where it would be processed. I don't recall the details, but that company charged the production company like $1000 a trip. Now, that company scored huge profits which went to its parent company. But Rockford Files' production company never could make a profit because of all these little companies providing services at outlandish fees.
Garner would win his case. He was one of my favorite actors, and for anyone who didn't know, the basis for Rockfish's name. Isaac Hayes' character called Rockford that.
I know in the past there have been athletes telling their teams that if the team wants them to sign for less they need to open their books. And teams don't take up that challenge.
A quick look says average WNBA attendance is 11,000. Now that is up greatly since 2022. Google AI:
The WNBA is experiencing a surge in attendance, with the league averaging over 11,000 fans per game, more than double the average from 2022. This increase is largely attributed to the league's growing popularity, fueled by stars like Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, and the increased exposure through broadcasts. The league is on pace to draw a record 3.18 million fans this season, shattering last year's record of 2.35 million.
Also according to Google AI:
The average WNBA ticket price varies, but it generally ranges from $173 to $282 on the secondary market for the 2025 season. Factors like team, opponent, arena, and demand influence the price. Ticket reseller Vivid Seats reports that the league's average 2025 ticket price is up 43% year-over-year, rising from $122 in 2024 to $173.
Now we know that people aren't paying the average ticket price listed there. That price I suspect is all seats with equal weight, I suspect a lot of people are going more low-end. 11,000 people times $20 tickets is $220,000. That alone is virtually the price of a WNBA Super Max contract (about $250,000). The entire salary cap is $1.5 million.
Now the teams do not get all the ticket money, but they do get some of the concessions, marketing, merchandising, and parking. So that ticket price of $20 probably isn't crazily overstated.
Now obviously it isn't that easy. And I suspect IF the WNBA is profitable this year, that is a relatively new invention given the growth. The new TV contract is $200 million per year. That would be $14+ million per team (I think there will be 14 teams next season).
I certainly can't say that the WNBA, or Colbert, were profitable. At the same point, I am not certain I can trust any business to not have some tricks up their sleeve. Heck, even the NCAA has claimed poverty at various times.
@receipt-keeper different climate now. They had woke Harris and Biden and the progressive movement taking up for them.
but studios and sports teams have a long history of playing with the books to show what they want.
For from me to care about defending a bunch of pompous, egotistical sports team owners, but they aren't wrong.
While there is not publicly available documents since these are private enterprises, why would NBA owners be so critical if the circumstances were the reverse? They are clearly more profit-motivated than anything and would gladly be reaping monetary benefits of the WNBA, if it were able to provide such.
To address some of your math, the loss was narrower last year than it was supposed to be - which is a good thing obviously.
This season the WNBA will lose $40 million, a bit better than the $50 million forecast and reported by several media outlets months ago but still a loss, sources said.
The bigger issue is the fact that the WNBA has taken so long to get up to where it is and still remains massively unprofitable. That may change with some of the new media contracts, but I don't know anyone who watches the league on TV, and I'm on the young side of this board. I cannot imagine older people have any interest. It claims to skew strongly towards Gen Z men. I asked ~10 of my men and women under 30 if they watch and they don't watch - in fact, sports consumption is lower with them than prior generations, I would argue. It's a small sample size, but that's what I have.
Lastly, I've been to two WNBA games for a playoff (maybe championship, I don't care enough to check) team. The quality is worse than the NBA and the atmosphere is the same. I'm sure the playoffs are better, but regular-season pro basketball is one of the worst sports to watch live. I'd much rather sit in my living room. There were PLENTY of empty seats and one game they barely had anyone in the upper level. For the prices you quoted, nobody is going to touch a WNBA game. Shit, I wouldn't pay that for the Timberwolves or Bulls.
@jdb Are you asking why owners would claim to be losing money during a contract negotiation? That answer seems painfully obvious.
I am certainly not claiming they are making money. I have no idea. I am just suggesting we not accept their numbers as gospel. They have incentives to portray themselves as destitute. I am pretty sure the NCAA have gone to congress seeking antitrust exemptions claiming poverty.
They may well be losing money, but we would need an independent accounting to KNOW they are losing money.
I have only been to one WNB game, and found it horrid. I hate going to NBA games. It is amazing to me the difference between a college game with cheers and a band vs an NBA game with loud canned crap music makes.
While I agree that the entertainment business accounting is notoriously open to cooking the books, I have to ask re the WNBA: these owners have lost how much over the last 20 years subsidizing a failed league? If this were just about business issues, it would have folded long ago. At what point do those owners, who risked their own capital, get to recoup that risk? What risk premium do you think is OK for them to capture?I'm not sure I always take what corporations say about profit at face value. I don't have any details to contradict the NBA, nor CBS on Colbert, but studios and sports teams have a long history of playing with the books to show what they want. I suspect a month ago if Brad had gone to CBS to buy Colbert's show he would have received some documentation about what a great value it is.
I recall an interview with James Garner over his lawsuit against NBC. Rockford had good ratings, and was the most syndicated show at the time. Yet it had never made a profit according to NBC, so Garner had received nothing from his profit incentives. In the interview he spoke how NBC would spin up small companies. One was a company that picked up film from the shoot at the end of the day and deliver across LA to where it would be processed. I don't recall the details, but that company charged the production company like $1000 a trip. Now, that company scored huge profits which went to its parent company. But Rockford Files' production company never could make a profit because of all these little companies providing services at outlandish fees.
Garner would win his case. He was one of my favorite actors, and for anyone who didn't know, the basis for Rockfish's name. Isaac Hayes' character called Rockford that.
I know in the past there have been athletes telling their teams that if the team wants them to sign for less they need to open their books. And teams don't take up that challenge.
A quick look says average WNBA attendance is 11,000. Now that is up greatly since 2022. Google AI:
The WNBA is experiencing a surge in attendance, with the league averaging over 11,000 fans per game, more than double the average from 2022. This increase is largely attributed to the league's growing popularity, fueled by stars like Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, and the increased exposure through broadcasts. The league is on pace to draw a record 3.18 million fans this season, shattering last year's record of 2.35 million.
Also according to Google AI:
The average WNBA ticket price varies, but it generally ranges from $173 to $282 on the secondary market for the 2025 season. Factors like team, opponent, arena, and demand influence the price. Ticket reseller Vivid Seats reports that the league's average 2025 ticket price is up 43% year-over-year, rising from $122 in 2024 to $173.
Now we know that people aren't paying the average ticket price listed there. That price I suspect is all seats with equal weight, I suspect a lot of people are going more low-end. 11,000 people times $20 tickets is $220,000. That alone is virtually the price of a WNBA Super Max contract (about $250,000). The entire salary cap is $1.5 million.
Now the teams do not get all the ticket money, but they do get some of the concessions, marketing, merchandising, and parking. So that ticket price of $20 probably isn't crazily overstated.
Now obviously it isn't that easy. And I suspect IF the WNBA is profitable this year, that is a relatively new invention given the growth. The new TV contract is $200 million per year. That would be $14+ million per team (I think there will be 14 teams next season).
I certainly can't say that the WNBA, or Colbert, were profitable. At the same point, I am not certain I can trust any business to not have some tricks up their sleeve. Heck, even the NCAA has claimed poverty at various times.
This hits me on a personal level because this is what I do for a living. I put up everything I have behind cases, and if they fail, I don't get a dime. I'm literally risking going bankrupt on any case that advances into the discovery stage or beyond. If I win, I have to ask a judge for a fee that is not what a normal lawyer charges because of the risk I took. Some judges understand, others are very hostile to it and always want to award less. And then you have the rabid ideologues that hate lawyers and contingency fees and think of large fee awards as unjust "windfalls" (ironically, those lay people tend to be big free market people like crazedhoosier and never recognize how inconsistent their position is). So if an employee comes to me and says, hey you just hit a big case and I worked on it, I want a %, I'd probably fire them on the spot.
A good friend will bail you out of jail, but your best friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying "that was f***ing awesome"
So if an employee comes to me and says, hey you just hit a big case and I worked on it, I want a %, I’d probably fire them on the spot.
hahahahaha. my buddy and i were working like dogs on this one case when we were baby lawyers. case popped and the firm's cut was $15 mil. i saw the check sitting there on the office manager's desk. so i told my buddy who was a senior assoc. real, real funny guy. hey you think we'll get a bonus out of that? and he goes i doubt it. so i kept pushing him to ask. finally he relented. comes back 2 seconds later.
what the big dog say?
he could have done without us 
If this were just about business issues, it would have folded long ago. At what point do those owners, who risked their own capital, get to recoup that risk? What risk premium do you think is OK for them to capture?
I seem to be putting a lot of effort into making it appear the WNBA is flush with cash, to be clear, I don't think they are. I think they have lost money in the past. I don't know about this year, that is tbd.
But to continue, look at the team valuations. Again, Google AI:
In 2025, WNBA team valuations have reached a record high, with the league's13 franchises collectively valued at $3.5 billion, according to ClickOnDetroit.This represents a 180% increase in valuation compared to 2024. The Golden State Valkyries lead the league with a valuation of $500 million, according to a report from Sportico.The New York Liberty and Indiana Fever follow, valued at $420 million and $335 million, respectively
If the Cowboys never made Jones a penny in profit it was still one hell of an investment just on valuation.
I think most owners aren't "bad". But I recall Mark Cuban discussing the Pittsburgh Pirates. Cuban would love to buy the team, but the owner spends absolutely nothing on the team and makes a profit, so he doesn't want to sell. A very small market team that is always one of the worst in MLB, and he makes a profit basically running AAA players out there. Not a bad gig if you can get it. And they are valued at $1.32 billion. He bought the team for $92 million in '92.
Players are overpaid in sports. I am tired of multi-millionaire players and multi-billionaire owners taking fans to the cleaners. And it is ludicrous to think that WNBA players would make anything in the same time zone as an NBA player. That part is different than the thread starter, as I understand it the women's team playing European football outdraws them men's team. At the same point, I am just not taking the NBA's numbers at face value. If they want to plead poverty, let the player's association pay an accounting firm to come in and look at the books.
I am tired of multi-millionaire players and multi-billionaire owners taking fans to the cleaners
i know you love soccer marv but we're living this statement with our mls side. it's at once af and fascinating to follow. owners are multi multi billionaires. enterprise family. built this gorgeous stadium and filled it with exceptionally expensive concessions. 3 year season ticket deals. a night out for a family of 4 to watch it is easily $400-$500. they have spent peanuts on the team. it's the worst product i've ever seen. i liken the entire experience to topgolf. lots of shit going on but when you scale it back it's not really golf and a driving range and real practice etc. well this isn't really soccer. it's bullshit.
so now fans are starting to bitch. but half the fans on social media try to shout down the ones complaining. youre not a true fan! then you're not all for city!!! then don't go! it's the strangest thing. if no one went ot any of the games in pittsburgh it would make a difference eventually. even with tv. if no goes to these city games that loss in revenue will eventually make owners change their model.
my point is that htey are taking fans to the cleaners. but fans aren't without recourse. that so many bend over and take it is absolutely bizarre to me
All super reasonable takes. I think I agree with you 100%.If this were just about business issues, it would have folded long ago. At what point do those owners, who risked their own capital, get to recoup that risk? What risk premium do you think is OK for them to capture?
I seem to be putting a lot of effort into making it appear the WNBA is flush with cash, to be clear, I don't think they are. I think they have lost money in the past. I don't know about this year, that is tbd.
But to continue, look at the team valuations. Again, Google AI:
In 2025, WNBA team valuations have reached a record high, with the league's13 franchises collectively valued at $3.5 billion, according to ClickOnDetroit.This represents a 180% increase in valuation compared to 2024. The Golden State Valkyries lead the league with a valuation of $500 million, according to a report from Sportico.The New York Liberty and Indiana Fever follow, valued at $420 million and $335 million, respectively
If the Cowboys never made Jones a penny in profit it was still one hell of an investment just on valuation.
I think most owners aren't "bad". But I recall Mark Cuban discussing the Pittsburgh Pirates. Cuban would love to buy the team, but the owner spends absolutely nothing on the team and makes a profit, so he doesn't want to sell. A very small market team that is always one of the worst in MLB, and he makes a profit basically running AAA players out there. Not a bad gig if you can get it. And they are valued at $1.32 billion. He bought the team for $92 million in '92.
Players are overpaid in sports. I am tired of multi-millionaire players and multi-billionaire owners taking fans to the cleaners. And it is ludicrous to think that WNBA players would make anything in the same time zone as an NBA player. That part is different than the thread starter, as I understand it the women's team playing European football outdraws them men's team. At the same point, I am just not taking the NBA's numbers at face value. If they want to plead poverty, let the player's association pay an accounting firm to come in and look at the books.
I will admit that part of this gives me an emotional charge because of a few (irrational?) things:
(1) I hate how much pro athletes (and entertainers) make.
(2) I find women's pro basketball ridiculous. I honestly believe, and would bet a lot of money on, a good high school team torching the WNBA all-star team. But I'm inconsistent because every once in a while, I'll watch women's tennis and do not find it ridiculous.
(3) The way in which the WNBA players and women's sports in general goes about negotiating often times devolves into a societal plea related to sexism and it's bullshit. Big-time negotiations are about money, period. Want to swim with the big kids? Put on your big-girl pants and go for it.
This post could easily be an example used in the capitalism contra conservatism thread. It's an example of how profit maximization in certain areas (not all) erodes traditional concerns and might make a culture, society, etc. worse rather than better.owners are multi multi billionaires. enterprise family. built this gorgeous stadium and filled it with exceptionally expensive concessions. 3 year season ticket deals. a night out for a family of 4 to watch it is easily $400-$500. they have spent peanuts on the team. it’s the worst product i’ve ever seen. i liken the entire experience to topgolf. lots of shit going on but when you scale it back it’s not really golf and a driving range and real practice etc. well this isn’t really soccer. it’s bullshit.
so now fans are starting to bitch. but half the fans on social media try to shout down the ones complaining. youre not a true fan! then you’re not all for city!!! then don’t go! it’s the strangest thing. if no one went ot any of the games in pittsburgh it would make a difference eventually. even with tv. if no goes to these city games that loss in revenue will eventually make owners change their model.
my point is that htey are taking fans to the cleaners. but fans aren’t without recourse. that so many bend over and take it is absolutely bizarre to me
@bradstevens cosign on all points. the one thing that inures to the benefit of htese women is that apparently the finances of the league are incredibly murky. odd nba funding and on and on. my guess is they may relent and up pay during the cba to avoid a deeper dive into the finances of these franchises
One fact that gives me a lot of pause about the WNBA currently is that they are selling franchises for $250 million. Now, that is probably due to upcoming TV contracts, but it must mean some rich people think they're about to turn the corner.@bradstevens cosign on all points. the one thing that inures to the benefit of htese women is that apparently the finances of the league are incredibly murky. odd nba funding and on and on. my guess is they may relent and up pay during the cba to avoid a deeper dive into the finances of these franchises
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