It’s irrelevant. It’s like posting about Jefferson’s favorite breakfast food. That’s also a nothingburger. Jeffersons sex life has nothing to do with Jefferson’s historical significance.
I find that a poor analogy and disagree about the relative importance of this issue.It’s irrelevant. It’s like posting about Jefferson’s favorite breakfast food. That’s also a nothingburger. Jeffersons sex life has nothing to do with Jefferson’s historical significance.
Your example and argument show Jefferson to be even more of a hypocrite, not less.Okay. I suggested Jefferson proposed abolishing slavery in the declaration, that couldn’t happen. But he came damn close. My salient point is about Brad’s kid’s teacher suggestion of Jefferson’s hypocrisy, and your hinting at reinforcing it with your first post in this thread.
I’d argue an inability to recognize the importance of the Founders’ hypocrisy on slavery and race makes it difficult for one to understand a very important part of US history and why race still, to this day, is so important to our politics.
Now this is worth a discussion. I’d like to read your argument on this point. I think there are a myriad of factors about why race matters today. The fact that some founders owned slaves might have had some short term influence, but I think the important reasons race still matters is a product of much more recent factors than what the founders thought about it. Some of the recent factors are education. The Founders and slavery, the U.S. was founded on original sin, etc. is taught today as the root cause of race issues. I strongly disagree with that perspective. Because it is taught, it becomes reality. It’s a crowd brainwash.
Jefferson’s particular hypocrisy didn’t end at slavery—his stated desire for a very limited federal government and powers evaporated when he became Prez.
This is likewise an interesting topic worth exploring. Are you thinking Louisiana Purchase? Barbary Coast? What?
Im guessing he’ll learn all that too. It’s AP US History.I think the “warts and all” approach to US history for the reasons I said is crap. The warts are nothingbergers. When almost all southern ag owners, and many in the north, owned slaves, the fact that some founders also owned some is irrelevant to our history. So yeah, if I were to teach history, I’d teach about the Missouri compromise, Dredd, Scott, Andrew Jackson, and Calhoon. That is much more instructive about the issue.
I’d argue an inability to recognize the importance of the Founders’ hypocrisy on slavery and race makes it difficult for one to understand a very important part of US history and why race still, to this day, is so important to our politics.
Jefferson’s particular hypocrisy didn’t end at slavery—his stated desire for a very limited federal government and powers evaporated when he became Prez.
For me, though, I’m not sure what good it does to assume the moral value conclusion of rape (very strong word with connotations of violence) in 1770s based on 21st century norms. There is evidence that Hemings “consented” in a non-trivial way within her circumstances. I think it’s a very thorny issue.
Jefferson isn't anymore hypocritical than current government leaders. We still have slavery (human exploitation for economic purposes) today. 200 years from now when they're studying the evils of fiat currencies people will be appalled by our government leaders when the lens they see through has shifted. I think the answer for "why" will be the same. A mixture of human greed, ignorance, and self preservation. Praise God for human innovation.
I find that a poor analogy and disagree about the relative importance of this issue.
Im willing to debate the point if you would articulate why Jefferson/ Hemings has historical significance.
Your example and argument show Jefferson to be even more of a hypocrite, not less.
Now you sound like a 21st century politician. Never compromise, always stand your ground on every issue. Always fight. Otherwise you are a hypocrite!
Without the slavery compromise there would have been no United States. Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and several more would have been hung. What would North America and the world have looked like?
Jefferson was a great and brilliant American Patriot, scholar, statesman, and visionary, a persuasive writer and orator, with visions of forming a new nation with new ideals, who had human foibles such as fathering children with a slave.
Is that hard? The last part doesn't negate the rest. It merely completes the picture.
"You can't make someone listen to reason if they aren't willing to think"-- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451
Your example and argument show Jefferson to be even more of a hypocrite, not less.
Now you sound like a 21st century politician. Never compromise, always stand your ground on every issue. Always fight. Otherwise you are a hypocrite!
Without the slavery compromise there would have been no United States. Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and several more would have been hung. What would North America and the world have looked like?
Did he compromise? If he really was an abolitionist why did he not free his own slaves. If a doctor performs elective abortions can they call themselves part of the pro-life movement?
IIRC, he freed only two of his slaves while he was living. He apparently didn't free more out of his own economic self-interest. He had a hard time keeping up with his lifestyle, travels to Europe, etc. He actually died with tons of debt.
In his will he specified that many slaves be freed. 4 kids with Sally Hemmings were, but over a hundred were sold to pay off his sizeable debts.
"You can't make someone listen to reason if they aren't willing to think"-- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451
IIRC, he freed only two of his slaves while he was living. He apparently didn't free more out of his own economic self-interest. He had a hard time keeping up with his lifestyle, travels to Europe, etc. He actually died with tons of debt.
In his will he specified that many slaves be freed. 4 kids with Sally Hemmings were, but over a hundred were sold to pay off his sizeable debts.
That is what I recall. So was he really an abolitionist?
That is what I recall. So was he really an abolitionist?
it's complicated.
He was publicly a consistent opponent of slavery. Calling it a “moral depravity” and a “hideous blot,” he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation. Jefferson wrote that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. He even called for the transatlantic slave trade to be abolished.
But he also thought that white Americans and enslaved blacks constituted "two separate nations” who could not live together peacefully in the same country once slavery was abolished. He called blacks "incapable as children" and imagined that freed slaves would or should be sent to Africa or the West Indies.
He was also influenced by slave rebellions and fears that releasing slaves piecemeal would prompt riots by those remaining in slavery.
He recognized his own inconsistencies, writing that maintaining slavery was like "holding a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go".
So yes, quite complicated, and unjustified to just slap on label like slave rapist without considering the totality of his views AND actions.
"You can't make someone listen to reason if they aren't willing to think"-- Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451
@aloha-hoosier Do they teach in school that Ilhan Omar married her brother?
While I regarded God as a tyrant I thought my sin a trifle; But when I knew Him to be my Father, then I mourned that I could ever have kicked against Him. When I thought God was hard, I found it easy to sin; but when I found God so kind, so good, so overflowing with compassion, I smote upon my breast to think that I could ever have rebelled against One who loved me so, and sought my good.” C. H. Spurgeon
@shooter Very reasonable post. Thank you. I would ask a question. Did Thomas Jefferson love Sally Hemmings? I ask this because didn't he set her free in his will? We also don't have any info on her objecting to sleeping with him. Perhaps she loved him too. It might not just be a slave/master situation. Their relationship could transcend all that.
While I regarded God as a tyrant I thought my sin a trifle; But when I knew Him to be my Father, then I mourned that I could ever have kicked against Him. When I thought God was hard, I found it easy to sin; but when I found God so kind, so good, so overflowing with compassion, I smote upon my breast to think that I could ever have rebelled against One who loved me so, and sought my good.” C. H. Spurgeon
The fate of North America did not depend on Jefferson’s owning slaves or having sex with his own.Your example and argument show Jefferson to be even more of a hypocrite, not less.
Now you sound like a 21st century politician. Never compromise, always stand your ground on every issue. Always fight. Otherwise you are a hypocrite!
Without the slavery compromise there would have been no United States. Jefferson, Washington, Adams, and several more would have been hung. What would North America and the world have looked like?
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