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The warmth of collectivism vs. rugged individualism

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Goat
 Goat
(@goat)
Famed Member

Posted by: @co-hoosier

Posted by: @goat

I simply receive wages in exchange for giving up those fruits.

Wages (compensation) are the fruits of your labor.  You are free to sell your labor, talents, etc. for a price you choose.  Can’t do that in a collective.  

Wages are absolutely not the fruits of my labor. They are the compensation the owner gives me in exchange for letting him keep the fruits of my labor.

 


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Posted : 02/23/2026 3:24 am
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UncleMark
(@unclemark)
Famed Member

Posted by: @goat

Posted by: @co-hoosier

Posted by: @goat

I simply receive wages in exchange for giving up those fruits.

Wages (compensation) are the fruits of your labor.  You are free to sell your labor, talents, etc. for a price you choose.  Can’t do that in a collective.  

Wages are absolutely not the fruits of my labor. They are the compensation the owner gives me in exchange for letting him keep the fruits of my labor.

LOL. Goat be droppin' the nuance bomb.

 


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Posted : 02/23/2026 9:58 am
larsIU
(@larsiu)
Noble Member

Posted by: @goat

Posted by: @co-hoosier

Posted by: @goat

I simply receive wages in exchange for giving up those fruits.

Wages (compensation) are the fruits of your labor.  You are free to sell your labor, talents, etc. for a price you choose.  Can’t do that in a collective.  

Wages are absolutely not the fruits of my labor. They are the compensation the owner gives me in exchange for letting him keep the fruits of my labor.

 

70% of people want to start their own business. 6% do. Why? 

 

Risk. Capital investment. Etc. etc. etc. COH isn't wildly off here. The owner has taken all the risk and supplied hte initial investment which allows him to hire employees for a wage. A wage paid to an employee of the company. An agreed price for the labor was achieved between two consenting parties. If you want to keep the fruits of your labor, start your own business. But would you be a hypocrite for then hiring workers who wouldn't get to keep the fruits of their own labor? 

 

And certainly in a collective those fruits are distributed unequally. So it ain't fair there either. 

 

But whatever we're arguing about, this will get 100x worse with AI. Wheeeeeeeee

 


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Posted : 02/23/2026 10:47 am
CO. Hoosier
(@co-hoosier)
Noble Member

@goat 

Whatever.  The fruits of your labor and talent doesn’t mean jack unless you can sell it.  


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Posted : 02/23/2026 10:50 am
CO. Hoosier
(@co-hoosier)
Noble Member

Posted by: @larsiu

Risk. Capital investment. Etc. etc. etc. COH isn't wildly off here. The owner has taken all the risk

Yep. Personally guaranteeing the firm 6 figure LOC to meet payrolls sobers you up really fast.  


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Posted : 02/23/2026 11:01 am
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BradStevens
(@bradstevens)
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Posted by: @unclemark

Posted by: @bradstevens

So contra ArthurDent, I don't see Mamdani talking about collectivism as abstract. I think he's making a call back to Lenin, Mao, etc. with his words here and elsewhere and that should give people pause.  

But whatever you do, don't you dare make Hitler/Nazi/Fascist references about Trump or his followers. That's TDS, of course.

 

Rather large difference between the two. 

Of course, you need more than just TDS to believe Trump is a Nazi—you also need to be a fool. 

 


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Topic starter Posted : 02/23/2026 11:04 am
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BradStevens
(@bradstevens)
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Posted by: @co-hoosier

Posted by: @larsiu

Risk. Capital investment. Etc. etc. etc. COH isn't wildly off here. The owner has taken all the risk

Yep. Personally guaranteeing the firm 6 figure LOC to meet payrolls sobers you up really fast.  

And especially with small business owners, it’s not just risk at startup.  It’s risk every day you’re operating.

 


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Topic starter Posted : 02/23/2026 11:06 am
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OpenWheel's avatar
(@openwheel)
Noble Member

Posted by: @goat

Wages are absolutely not the fruits of my labor. They are the compensation the owner gives me in exchange for letting him keep the fruits of my labor.

If you want that definition, then our earnings are never the fruits of our labor. They are the compensation society gives us in exchange for their valuation of our work.

,

 

 


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Posted : 02/23/2026 11:12 am
CO. Hoosier
(@co-hoosier)
Noble Member

@openwheel 

And you use that compensation to purchase goods and services from others.  The free economy runs on individuals monetizing their labor.  


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Posted : 02/23/2026 11:57 am
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OpenWheel's avatar
(@openwheel)
Noble Member

Posted by: @bradstevens
... And especially with small business owners, it’s not just risk at startup.  It’s risk every day you’re operating.

And the common man, who bleeds on the battlefield, does he risk less? - William Wallace (Braveheart. 😆 )

,

 


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Posted : 02/23/2026 1:34 pm
larsIU
(@larsiu)
Noble Member

A snippet of background on the Netherlands new unrealized/mark to market tax ploy. 36% on unrealized capital gains. Done yearly. Starting 2028. This lays out the conundrum in that the netherlands high court invalidated a prior scheme so left with two options, a true capital gains tax (post sale or transfer) or an unrealized "wealth tax", they chose the latter. 

Coming to America?

 

https://news.bloombergtax.com/financial-accounting/week-in-insights-dutch-unrealized-gains-tax-is-a-surprise-reform


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Posted : 02/23/2026 1:40 pm
CO. Hoosier
(@co-hoosier)
Noble Member

@larsiu 

Wealth “taxes” aren’t taxes.  They are property seizures and violate the takings clause.  Not just my opinion . . . .

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/when-is-a-tax-not-a-tax-6ea56691?st=QYeFR5


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Posted : 02/23/2026 4:17 pm
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larsIU
(@larsiu)
Noble Member

Posted by: @co-hoosier

@larsiu 

Wealth “taxes” aren’t taxes.  They are property seizures and violate the takings clause.  Not just my opinion . . . .

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/when-is-a-tax-not-a-tax-6ea56691?st=QYeFR5

Yeah, i wonder if the EU is even going to let this stand. They have til 2028 to decide I guess. 

 


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Posted : 02/23/2026 4:53 pm
UncleMark
(@unclemark)
Famed Member

Posted by: @bradstevens

Posted by: @unclemark

Posted by: @bradstevens

So contra ArthurDent, I don't see Mamdani talking about collectivism as abstract. I think he's making a call back to Lenin, Mao, etc. with his words here and elsewhere and that should give people pause.  

But whatever you do, don't you dare make Hitler/Nazi/Fascist references about Trump or his followers. That's TDS, of course.

Rather large difference between the two. 

Of course, you need more than just TDS to believe Trump is a Nazi—you also need to be a fool. 

Just so I'm clear, referencing Trump and Hitler in the same breath makes you a fool, but referencing Mamdani and Lenin or Mao together is okay?

 


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Posted : 02/23/2026 4:55 pm
BradStevens
(@bradstevens)
Famed Member

Posted by: @unclemark

Posted by: @bradstevens

Posted by: @unclemark

Posted by: @bradstevens

So contra ArthurDent, I don't see Mamdani talking about collectivism as abstract. I think he's making a call back to Lenin, Mao, etc. with his words here and elsewhere and that should give people pause.  

But whatever you do, don't you dare make Hitler/Nazi/Fascist references about Trump or his followers. That's TDS, of course.

Rather large difference between the two. 

Of course, you need more than just TDS to believe Trump is a Nazi—you also need to be a fool. 

Just so I'm clear, referencing Trump and Hitler in the same breath makes you a fool, but referencing Mamdani and Lenin or Mao together is okay?

 

UncleMark
 
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Posted by: @bulk-vh

 

I know this is a tough concept for some, but everything does not, in fact, equal everything.

 

 

The ridiculous comparisons indicate a serious lack of intellect. 

 


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Topic starter Posted : 02/23/2026 10:46 pm
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