@bradstevens You really seem to suggest there are two dots on a page, one dot is collectivism one dot is rugged individualism and everything fits in one of the dots
Everything is a line, we can debate straight or curved. Every nation occupied it's own dot on that line. Some are more collectivest than the US, some less. If you don't accept that, you need to review your political theory. And that is my complaint, you are arguing the far end of one side of the line is better that the far side of the same line. That may be true but in no way is either option the best dot on that line and it isn't open for debate.
In overall politics, the line curves. Hence why Trump said nice things about a couple of weeks ago. Liberal populists aren't that far from conservative populists. Libertarians are on the opposite side of the circle.
Plus you never mentioned Mamdani in the original post. If discussing him was you intent, mentioning him might help. I have no love for populists. That includes left. I can see why some voted for him. The choices were a former governor who credibly accused of multiple sexual abuse and retaliations, and a "Democrat" who had been convicted of felonies and agreed to do whatever Trump wanted for a pardon. None of the three should have excited voters. If you go back to 24, I never urged people to vote Harris and I have never said a bad thing about people who said they only voted Trump because there was no option. I will comment negatively to people who believe Trump the greatest leader ever.
So are collectivism and individualism widely separated unconnected dots, or is there a line that one moves away from one and toward the other? That second is obviously correct which was and is my point. But if you have a link saying they are disconnected dots and a government is only one or the other, bring it.
The quote comes from Mamdani He juxtaposed the two. It’s his language. Your gripe is with him.@bradstevens You really seem to suggest there are two dots on a page, one dot is collectivism one dot is rugged individualism and everything fits in one of the dots
Everything is a line, we can debate straight or curved. Every nation occupied it's own dot on that line. Some are more collectivest than the US, some less. If you don't accept that, you need to review your political theory. And that is my complaint, you are arguing the far end of one side of the line is better that the far side of the same line. That may be true but in no way is either option the best dot on that line and it isn't open for debate.
In overall politics, the line curves. Hence why Trump said nice things about a couple of weeks ago. Liberal populists aren't that far from conservative populists. Libertarians are on the opposite side of the circle.
Plus you never mentioned Mamdani in the original post. If discussing him was you intent, mentioning him might help. I have no love for populists. That includes left. I can see why some voted for him. The choices were a former governor who credibly accused of multiple sexual abuse and retaliations, and a "Democrat" who had been convicted of felonies and agreed to do whatever Trump wanted for a pardon. None of the three should have excited voters. If you go back to 24, I never urged people to vote Harris and I have never said a bad thing about people who said they only voted Trump because there was no option. I will comment negatively to people who believe Trump the greatest leader ever.
So are collectivism and individualism widely separated unconnected dots, or is there a line that one moves away from one and toward the other? That second is obviously correct which was and is my point. But if you have a link saying they are disconnected dots and a government is only one or the other, bring it.
I don’t equate rugged individualism and collectivism with govt types (Democracy, Republics, Monarchies, etc). I equate them with mindsets and justifications for particular types of government and policies.
In my reading of history—including the history of ideas—the development of individual rights has been the greatest moral advancement for government in human history. On my reading of history—including the history of ideas—those who crow about collectivism also want to curtail individual rights.
If in the current political environment, my beliefs make me a conservative, so be it. I’m not going to change the way I think to fit inside some groupthink granfalloon.
@bradstevens hasn't America been collectivest since the beginning? Has there ever been a time, a moment, that being White hasn't been an advantage in the US?
@arthur-dent Arthur I love your enthusiasm. I assume you're a student? Hopefully not a teacher/professor. There seem to be a number of young people on this website who I can tell are in a school/university bubble. It's that child-like idealism that doesn't match reality. For some reason it has really caught hold with the Dem party. Their leaders, Mamdani, AOC, are really just children. They've never had careers. Don't really know much. LIke the new mayor in Seattle living with her parents. It's been interesting an odd to follow with the new Progressive Socialist Dem Party.
The contributor here, Brad Stevens, Butler guy, is 100 percent correct. Rugged individualism is why the USA is the USA, the greatest country ever created. The creation of a political and business environment that allows people to create, to build, to become rich is what separates us, along with fertile ground, oceans etc. Remove all that and you ignore the most important part: human psychology. These people that create cars, Google, all of the massive companies that provide us with jobs and grow our country aren't doing so out of altruistic reasons. Most of these people are jerks. You think Jeff Bezos is a nice guy? Zuckerburg? On and on. Their self-interest and personal motivation to be great and get rich and not a nerd is what gave them the gas to build something great. Bezos is on yachts with Dicaprio. Bezos is a poser. Zuckerburg is bouncing out of tune with UFC fight teams. They want to be cool and rich. Billie Eilish was giving a speech and she called Billionaires shorties. If you're a billionaire why? Give your money away. She doesn't get what I wrote. Gates, Zuck, Bezos have absurd compounds and luxuries. That's why they worked so hard. You think it's a coincidence people are leaving California in droves? Of course not. They don't want to help others. THey want their money.
If the government said there will be no more self-interested billionaires we will embrace warm collectivism it would extinguish that instantly. Our ingenuity start ups motivation would match the sloths in Europe and all the rest of the nonproducing countries. Individualism above all things is what makes us great.
@sharinincarmel I am a retired IT guy. I am an eternal optimist. We old people see change as bad, I am not sure the younger people do. I recall being young, living in a multi gender house. My dad was mad I was watching Saturday morning cartoons. My grandfather told me after that I shouldn't feel bad, my dad (greatest generation) wasted his time listening to the radio instead of doing extra work
Each generation hates the new stuff the next Gen has. Doesn't make it bad, just different
As to the topic at hand, does this sound individualist or collective, "we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
@arthur-dent Well done on your career and congratulations! As for the quote that related to the cause. Their lives, fortune to create a country. Not into perpetuity. Not to 2026.
@sharinincarmel I am a retired IT guy. I am an eternal optimist. We old people see change as bad, I am not sure the younger people do. I recall being young, living in a multi gender house. My dad was mad I was watching Saturday morning cartoons. My grandfather told me after that I shouldn't feel bad, my dad (greatest generation) wasted his time listening to the radio instead of doing extra work
Each generation hates the new stuff the next Gen has. Doesn't make it bad, just different
As to the topic at hand, does this sound individualist or collective, "we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
Can you name any country, society, etc. where collectivism has yielded better results than the rugged individualism of the US over the course of human history?
These people are amongst us. They vote for this and then complain about inflation 🤡🤡🤡
https://twitter.com/i/status/2009684561660174614
@dbmhoosier I am at a total loss as to what can be done about the Dem party. Just frightening.
@dbmhoosier I am at a total loss as to what can be done about the Dem party. Just frightening.
Did you see who the Dems just voted in Mayor of Seattle? Has never had a job and lives with her parents. Now runs one of America's largest cities. Cori Bush would possibly make a better mayor of St Louis.
https://twitter.com/i/status/2007167042844246055
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