@iubhounds This is the most fun team to watch since the Cody Zeller teams, for me.  The 16 team probably would be too, but I was so fed up with Crean by then, that I probably sounded like Cav does with Bailey, about guys like Troy Williams, on that team.

My expectations were to hire a smart college basketball coach, that could handle the IU job, and would fully utilize IU's "resources" and capacities, and recruit and land at least a few NBA level players on each of his teams.  

Obviously game results end up being what actually matters.  But how you get to the results, how you build the program to get to the results, are just as important, to me.

An example to explain what I mean... I would rather have someone like Darian DeVries, and have him finish 10-10 in the B10 in year 1, have a bubble level team, and have him implementing what he is, and playing how they are... 100 times out of 100, over... Chris Beard, winning 13-14+ B10 games, winning a game or two in the NCAAs, but being who he is, and running the God awful, plodding, ISO based, football looking crap, that he's running at Ole Miss.  Same type of analogy for how CDD is handling our team versus watching how Mick Cronin bitches and moans about everything except himself.

So... do we have a smart college basketball coach?  Yes, obviously.  Can he handle the IU job, it seams like he's off to a decent start with that, but time will tell.  And I don't think we can judge him on the last one yet with how his first roster build went, and with what it seems like his NIL support and budget are, right now.  But I would say the returns are very mixed on that.  He missed on all the obvious NBA level HS kids he was in on.  Same for portal kids last offseason.  Lets see what this offseason looks like, though.  I liken his roster build last year to a family trying to stretch their fixed budget for an entire month.  Obviously going out to Ruth's Chris multiple times in the first week would be enjoyable, at the time, but not when you run out of money and can't eat the last 3 weeks of the month.  I strongly suspect CDD realized, very early on, that what seemed like a very good and competitive budget, was not going to support landing multiple NBA level guys (like Landeborg, Rob Wright, etc...), let alone guys like Bidunga and Conwell...if he wanted to field any sort of deep and competitive team.  As it was built, He has a team poised to make the NCAA tournament, despite having pretty significant injuries to some guys that I'm sure he was banking on pushing for main rotation roles.  They are a group of mid major guys.  But they're playing well together, and competing above that mid major level.  

All in all... I enjoy watching them play.  They're competitive.  And with the knowledge of how the team was put together, the conditions that were present, what they look like now... I'm pretty excited about the direction of our program.  Obviously that's a very fluid feeling though.

1. Upon the removal of Bigfoot my expectations were to hire a high level proven winner coach.  He takes us back to relevance in year 1. Basketball is a lot easier to rebuild than football.  I can give you examples where this has happened, if you like.  What does that mean ...year one I expected S16.  And not because we got a last four in bid. Now we may still do that possibly but doubtful.  
2. you've mentioned the roster and the long time it took to form a staff. Why did it take so long...??  That's bizarre.  Why was he unable to bring no other players from WV with him outside of his son? Thats bizarre. Were there any of the previous players considered ... and maybe they should not have been?  
3.  Yes we wanted a coach that used a more modern offense than Bigfoot.  Anyone we hired would have provided that ... but it has to have the horses in the barn to execute otherwise we've accomplished nothing.  It has to produce victories and not just against Bethune Cookman  and as far as shot selection. Yeah no one ever pined for half court 3's at inopportune times. The one TD took on the Kentucky game... moronic decision which had a part in altering the game 
4. Effort.  Go back and watch some of those games late December and early January. Incarnate word , Lindenwood , kennesaw, Minnesota, Kentucky, Louisville , Chicago st 

there were long tracks of minutes in which 1 or more were not hustling. And it was more than 1 most of the time.   Effort is controllable 

5. decision making  has been horrendous even in the last 3 games  2 of which we allowed the teams to get back into the game and we almost lost   These guys are seniors and juniors  some of the mistakes they make are mind boggling   No one is perfect but man.. 

and yes I will bitch, especially when we trot out in August or October touting what we have and how excited we are for the season and we see big things blah blah blah   Same BS different decade   And you as a witness to the '75 and '76 teams should see a shit sandwich when it's in front of you   So is this team taking a wrap for years of degradation , perhaps   But until they prove themselves otherwise they will be critiqued that's what a forum is for... 

So my expectations upon removal of Woody were S16 and top 5 in Big Ten. With the 10m budget we had.  The roster bungle, the staff bungle etc and now reality sets in... so to ask anyone what their expectations were prior to the new head coach being announced and what they were on November 4th to me are 2 starkly different things... so one has to conclude that the difference between the 2 answers has to be attributed to something or someone ??? 
Winning at the level of Northwestern and being happy about it , is not IU basketball. It's , well, shitty Northwestern basketball. 
The ceiling changed for the team as a result of these "factors" or rather excuses or poor  execution. 
So I begin to ask questions... why did we take so long to hire the staff, why didn't any more players come from WV , why did we only get the talent we got from the portal? Why did we fill out a roster with players whose  ceiling is a first four in bid or last four out.  Was there consideration of stacking the team from 1-8 with world beaters and then what's left over is left over?  Hell we've been playing only about 8-9 deep all year until just recently ... there's a lot of question marks that just seem bizarre.  And I'm not going to just accept the lame PR remarks or excuses they feed to the media. Because it's likely not that simple nor  accurate 

Posted by: @hoosiers94

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1. Upon the removal of Bigfoot my expectations were to hire a high level proven winner coach.  He takes us back to relevance in year 1. Basketball is a lot easier to rebuild than football.  I can give you examples where this has happened, if you like.  What does that mean ...year one I expected S16.  And not because we got a last four in bid. Now we may still do that possibly but doubtful.  
2. you've mentioned the roster and the long time it took to form a staff. Why did it take so long...??  That's bizarre.  Why was he unable to bring no other players from WV with him outside of his son? Thats bizarre. Were there any of the previous players considered ... and maybe they should not have been?  
3.  Yes we wanted a coach that used a more modern offense than Bigfoot.  Anyone we hired would have provided that ... but it has to have the horses in the barn to execute otherwise we've accomplished nothing.  It has to produce victories and not just against Bethune Cookman  and as far as shot selection. Yeah no one ever pined for half court 3's at inopportune times. The one TD took on the Kentucky game... moronic decision which had a part in altering the game 
4. Effort.  Go back and watch some of those games late December and early January. Incarnate word , Lindenwood , kennesaw, Minnesota, Kentucky, Louisville , Chicago st 

there were long tracks of minutes in which 1 or more were not hustling. And it was more than 1 most of the time.   Effort is controllable 

5. decision making  has been horrendous even in the last 3 games  2 of which we allowed the teams to get back into the game and we almost lost   These guys are seniors and juniors  some of the mistakes they make are mind boggling   No one is perfect but man.. 

and yes I will bitch, especially when we trot out in August or October touting what we have and how excited we are for the season and we see big things blah blah blah   Same BS different decade   And you as a witness to the '75 and '76 teams should see a shit sandwich when it's in front of you   So is this team taking a wrap for years of degradation , perhaps   But until they prove themselves otherwise they will be critiqued that's what a forum is for... 

So my expectations upon removal of Woody were S16 and top 5 in Big Ten. With the 10m budget we had.  The roster bungle, the staff bungle etc and now reality sets in... so to ask anyone what their expectations were prior to the new head coach being announced and what they were on November 4th to me are 2 starkly different things... so one has to conclude that the difference between the 2 answers has to be attributed to something or someone ??? 
Winning at the level of Northwestern and being happy about it , is not IU basketball. It's , well, shitty Northwestern basketball. 
The ceiling changed for the team as a result of these "factors" or rather excuses or poor  execution. 
So I begin to ask questions... why did we take so long to hire the staff, why didn't any more players come from WV , why did we only get the talent we got from the portal? Why did we fill out a roster with players whose  ceiling is a first four in bid or last four out.  Was there consideration of stacking the team from 1-8 with world beaters and then what's left over is left over?  Hell we've been playing only about 8-9 deep all year until just recently ... there's a lot of question marks that just seem bizarre.  And I'm not going to just accept the lame PR remarks or excuses they feed to the media. Because it's likely not that simple nor  accurate 

IMO your first year expectations were not even possible. NIL or not, wasn't going to happen. By his past DD was NOT going to sign NBA caliber players. Can you name a first year coach in a P4 conference that is doing now what you want? Would you have been happy with Josh Schertz based on what he did at Indiana State not knowing what he is doing at St Louis?

Those are all good questions. I don't know why. I know at one time they were waiting on the A&M assistant who was still in the tournament, only to get turned down after A&M gave him a big pay raise. Not sure but I think the assistant from UT was still in the tournament. I am sure DD and those WV players can answer that for you, they definitely know the why's of that. Anything thing else is just rumors. I also found it interesting he did not offer any of his incoming freshman class ... why? Maybe he thought long term they were not B10 caliber players. 

I think by year three DD will have the team he wants. Portal and HS recruits. He said on Day 1 that HS recruits would build his roster with portal players filling in as needed and this year they needed 13 of them. Not every player likes IU the way you and I do. Hardly any of them even can understand the history of IU basketball because to kids today it doesn't matter. Years ago the Temple coach, John Chaney, took his team for a AH tour trying to tell them about IU history and said all his kids on the team cared about, was what time would they be going to McDonalds to eat. Kids today see only losing when they hear the name IU.

I don't care about effort in December or even November. The hated Dakich said a few years ago, (no I don't listen to his show) that players want to play in big games. If the crowd isn't excited about those teams you mention how can you expect players to be interested in those types of games and play hard. I care about what I have seen since since they folded against Nebraska even after getting beat 3 games after that. Sometimes better players win.

I said in my first statement I was not and never will be happy with average basketball or as you say Northwestern basketball. I am not happy being where IU is in the conference but we have already discussed roster and coaches crap. It is what it is. 

IMO you will not be happy next year either. DD is recruiting HS kids as his foundation. The classes of Woodson type teams are over. Only you can decide what you want to watch. 

I can almost tell you the players you are looking for is not ever going to happen at IU with DD here and I am fine with that. They can still be top 5 in the B10 and make Sweet 16's or higher. With NIL and now the NBA and G-League crap, I am this close to stop watching any of it and instead go to watch my two local small D1 teams that lose most of the time. 

@hoosiers94 

1. Your wording is your own, and you're entitled to it and your thoughts, obviously.  Who would have fit that hire though?  CDD is a proven winner, and he did prove he could build an unsuccessful program in to a successful one, at Drake.  And he turned around a downtrodden P4 program, immediately as well.  What he had not proven, is whether he could win big at a P4 school.  That was the unknown, and still is with CDD.  I can get behind the sentiment that we'd have been better off hiring a guy that has shown he CAN do it, like Beard or Drew.  If it weren't for it being those specific guys, essentially being the only 2 semi realistic guys that had shown elite success at P4 schools.  As I think both are very flawed.  And neither of their styles of play would be even marginally enjoyable to watch.  Things turned very quickly on Archie and Woody, because the basketball they were playing was horrible to watch.  Beard's teams are worse to watch than either of those guys.  Drew's aren't quite as bad as Beard, but he's still very much an athlete, physicality, ISO ball, type coach.  CDD's IU team, while having similar game results, is much more fun to watch thus far.  So the angst isn't nearly as high, for me, as it would be with similar results from guys like Beard.  To circle back... I don't think IU could have hired anyone that would have guaranteed a B10 contending, S16 levels of team, in year 1.  

2.  Him not bringing coaches or players with him, is concerning, for sure.

3.  Beard wouldn't have.  Drew doesn't run much of a modern offense.  Cronin runs a lot of pick and roll/ISo stuff.  McCollum runs some pretty rigid, mechanical stuff, that often isn't overly fun to watch...  Obviously there were others that are on the more modern side.  But if you advocated for Beard or Drew, your question or argument on 3 is void.  

4.  Agree.  Mainly with the consistency of it.  All year, dating back to PR, its been up and down.  Its been largely better the last 3 games, but even in those games, there have been lulls.  I think focus is just as much a part of that as effort.  Obvious concern.  

5.  Agree here as well.  Its concerning.  But my immediate thought was CDD has probably spent so much time focusing on trying to build the passing, movement based, 3 point shooting, stuff that he was willing to live with some turnovers and poor shots.  We have a top 20 ish offensive team in the country.  I don't love the wild, weird shots and turnovers we have every now and then.  But its hard to argue with the overall results, thus far.  Outside the consistency issues, which I think are more a result of the ball dying in somoene's hands and the movement stopping, than poor decision making on specific plays.

For me... balancing what IU has been in its history, with what they have been recently... balancing what they could be, with what they realistically should be... is important.  Its literally been since the early 90s since we've been what you're expecting IU to be, in year 1.  Its not something that was impossible to pull off.  Michigan did with May.  Arizona did with Tommy Lloyd.  But outside those 2 specific guys, there are basically everyone else, that didn't.  Just seems like unrealistic expectations for year 1.

I think most of our program expectations are similar.  B10 contenders every year.  S16 contenders every year.  FF and Natty contending level teams every few years.  I just think expecting it year 1, with the current college basketball trends and conditions... you're setting yourself up for unnecessary frustration and disappointment.  And you might miss the fun of building the program up to that, over a couple year period.  

I expected to be comfortably in the tournament (IE, not tuning into SS not knowing). Ideally a single digit seed and a win or 2. This to lead into some momentum heading into year 2 and potentially a higher budget.

My comparisons were Kelsey, Pope, May as they all had just taken over major programs the year prior and had some level of success which lead to a big springboard for year 2.

Kelsy started out 6-5 overall before jumping into a super weak ACC schedule and finishing well. 8 seed, bounced first round. Had momentum heading into year 2 and a top 10 team (they have floundered quite a bit since the start though and are looking at probably another 8-9 seed). They have all the same resources and NIL that IU does.

Pope was sitting at 6-5 in the SEC at this same date last year. Finished 10-10 in conference. Got a strong seed based on SEC strength and made a S16. Donor money pouring in. Spent 22 million on their roster this year and have had a ton of struggles. Looks like another .500 ish conference finish and a NCAAT berth. 

May started out strong last year and got a 5 seed. Went to S16 and has had a top 4 team all this year. This was the no brainer hire but that didn't have anything to do with the cycle we hired DDV in. Year too late on this one.

So, DDV looks to be generally in the same ballpark with Kelsey/Pope year 1 thus far. They used that year to get momentum and Top 10ish teams starting year 2 (despite both falling considerably as the season goes on). May is clearly the top dog here, but was still a 5 seed last year.

So, can we continue and finish in that ballpark and hopefully get some more donor excitement heading into year 2 and a step up to Top 10/15 team in year 2? That'd be my expectations for the program's trajectory. 

@iunorth 

last year Kelsey , pope and calipari also did it.  Otzelberger did it as well. 
iowa st , Arkansas and Louisville not in real good shape when they took over either. 

Top third of B1G and the potential for an NCAAT run. I think that's reasonable.

I don't necessarily expect a deep run, but I'd like to be able to say, "If IU gets rolling, it could do damage in the tourney." Yes, this team has shown the ability to pull an upset, but I don't see the Hoosiers stringing together two or three wins in the NCAAT ... too many holes. 

Tbh, I'm not overly concerned about wins and losses in Year 1. Rather, I'd like to know that the future of IU basketball is in good hands. That's still undetermined. 

Expectations for year 1:  win one game in the tournament and finish top 7 in the B1G.

Year 2:  borderline top 15 team and a Sweet 16 favorite. 

Year 3: top 10 team and a legit FF and B1G title contender.

Very realistic in the NIL portal era. 

@hoosiers94 Kelsey was an 8 seed, and got bounced in the first round by Creighton.  Calipari was less than .500 in conference, and won a couple tourney games, yes.  Pope, a legacy coach and reportedly 4th or 5th on Kentucky's wish list...might approach what you're saying you'd have expected.  But he had top of the nation NIL resources in both his first 2 seasons, and only finished 10-8 in the SEC regular season... and has been struggling to get going in his 2nd season. Otzelberger was 7-11 in the B12 regular season his first year, and won a couple tournament games, yes.  But he showed quite a lot less promise or success before ISU, than CDD has shown before IU.  I'd love to hear your take on Otzelberger while they were in the midst of finishing 7-11 in the B12, and not really having any pedigree or track record of success... and doing it all with a bunch of mid major players to boot.  

@iunorth 

yes correct Kelsey I had wrong.  If anyone can "win" with thar talent most of which he inherited and didn't pick out of the portal. Thats a job well done.  If DD goes to the S16 this year I'll temper my criticism... "IF" is a big word 

@hoosiers94 Kelsey is a very good coach.  Sweet 16s are not a great expectation measurement, in my opinion, for singular year evaluations.  Especially first years.  Too many variables to draw definitive conclusions on.  

Bob Knight in his 36 years at IU and TT... 15 sweet 16s.  I'm sure he had plenty other teams that were pretty damn good, that didn't make the S16.  Either way, it shows that having a sweet 16 as any sort of expectation, is... misguided.  Now, having a top 4 NCAA tournament seed... maybe that's a little better.  That's more of a body of work type thing.  Or maybe, having a team playing well enough to compete for a couple NCAA wins, even if they're out of a top 4 seed.

Now... if CDD is 4 years in, and hasn't made a S16, and hasn't had any teams that won or competed for a B10 title, obviously then that becomes a major criteria of concern.

My main problem with all of this is the hard expectations for year 1.  It just doesn't make sense.  Not for nearly any other program, let alone a program like IU that hasn't really been there much in 30 years.  

Expectations for Mark Pope... after taking over a program that lived in the Sweet 16 for the last 20+ years... maybe, sure.  Expectations for John Scheyer for the same reasons... yeah, sure.  Kelsey, DeVries... ehh, build your program, be competitive, improve year over year, get your programs to the top by years 3-4.  

Posted by: @iunorth

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@hoosiers94 Kelsey is a very good coach.  Sweet 16s are not a great expectation measurement, in my opinion, for singular year evaluations.  Especially first years.  Too many variables to draw definitive conclusions on.  

Bob Knight in his 36 years at IU and TT... 15 sweet 16s.  I'm sure he had plenty other teams that were pretty damn good, that didn't make the S16.  Either way, it shows that having a sweet 16 as any sort of expectation, is... misguided.  Now, having a top 4 NCAA tournament seed... maybe that's a little better.  That's more of a body of work type thing.  Or maybe, having a team playing well enough to compete for a couple NCAA wins, even if they're out of a top 4 seed.

Now... if CDD is 4 years in, and hasn't made a S16, and hasn't had any teams that won or competed for a B10 title, obviously then that becomes a major criteria of concern.

My main problem with all of this is the hard expectations for year 1.  It just doesn't make sense.  Not for nearly any other program, let alone a program like IU that hasn't really been there much in 30 years.  

Expectations for Mark Pope... after taking over a program that lived in the Sweet 16 for the last 20+ years... maybe, sure.  Expectations for John Scheyer for the same reasons... yeah, sure.  Kelsey, DeVries... ehh, build your program, be competitive, improve year over year, get your programs to the top by years 3-4.  

Alford went to 3 in 4 years at UCLA.  I agree not a good measurement. 

Posted by: @gthomas

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Top third of B1G and the potential for an NCAAT run. I think that's reasonable.

I don't necessarily expect a deep run, but I'd like to be able to say, "If IU gets rolling, it could do damage in the tourney." Yes, this team has shown the ability to pull an upset, but I don't see the Hoosiers stringing together two or three wins in the NCAAT ... too many holes. 

Tbh, I'm not overly concerned about wins and losses in Year 1. Rather, I'd like to know that the future of IU basketball is in good hands. That's still undetermined. 

Right now the team is 15-7 overall, 6-5 in the Big Ten and picked up two Quad 1 wins in the last week. They are top 30 in the NET. The path is there to comfortably make the tournament IF the team keeps up its level of play and continues to improve.